bottle or open body turnbuckle

[Didereaux]

farmerchase,
Bronze is not brass, a cousin only- bronze is hard alloy, brass is soft.

As too your concerns about it. What I said earlier about metallurgists and engineers is mainstream information, not opinion. Information which is widely available from technical sources, manufacturers and sellers...everywhere!

Which material do you suppose the top boatbuilders would specify for original equipment, and I am NOT referring to Hunter or Beneteau or any other chlorox bottle mfr. Order a new custom Halberg-Rassey and see what the turnbuckles are, probably the winches as well for that matter. BRONZE! Plated bronze. Why the plating, two reasons slow down some galvanic action, AND to blend in visually with the stainless parts.

Now I have a question for those who doubt this all. Why or what compels people to jump into a technical discussion without doing the slightest bit of study, nor having anything but a rudimentary singular association with the subject matter?

As the King of Siam was want to say, "It's a puzzlement!"

[bottomscraper]

Would bronze threads be too soft and prone to seizing?
Chase

Actually I have had problems with stainless on stainless seizing but never bronze with either stainless or bronze. I once made the mistake of using an electric impact wrench with stainless nuts and bolts on a boat trailer. After about the third one that seized up switched to a hand ratchet. I later did some reading and found that this is a common problem with stainless. Here is something I found on the web:

"Galling occurs when the stainless steel oxide surface film breaks down as a result of direct metal contact. Solid-phase welding can then take place (whereby material is transferred from one surface to another). The symptoms of galling include surface damage and seizing and freezing up of equipment. Galling commonly occurs when using stainless steel nuts and bolts together, where the contact points are subjected to high tightening torques."

[Steve Laume]

Chase, I don't get it. I thought all farmers were basically required to have an alumininum boat laying around that they never get a chance to use. That is pretty much what my insurance man told me when we were going over my farmowners policy. He was right too, we had a 12 FT aluminum job sitting around. I did not tell him about our CD-30 cause it was not part of his business and he just didn't need to know. The great thing about being a farmer who goes sailing is that no matter how bad things are while sailing you have probably put up with worse while on the farm. Take care of those turnbuckles, Steve.

[Oswego John]

Didereaux and all,

In your latest post, you ask "what compels people to jump into a technical discussion without doing the slightest bit of study, etc."

Winston Churchill, to many, was a cool dude. There was a story making the rounds many years ago inferring his prowess as a potential world class poker player, master of the bluff.

One day Sir Winston was arguing a case among his peers in Parliament. He deluged them with incontestable facts and figures that convincingly swung the vote in his favor.

Later that day, one of his aides congratulated Sir Winston on his presentation of the overwhelming data he came up with. With a twinkle in his eye, Winston asserted, "Look, I stayed up half the night searching for the necessary info that I wanted to present, with no success whatsoever. If I, searching diligently for eight hours, can't find anything about the subject in the records, I'll be dipped if any of those cutthroats can come up to challenge my statements between the time that I made them and the call for a vote".

Moral of the story:
If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with B.S.

Think spring,
O J

[Didereaux]

;)

[RichMason]

I'm sitting in a heavily fortified compound in Iraq without alot to do this week due to Eid so I hope you guys don't mind a few basic questions on re-rigging. First, did our boats come with bronze from the factory? I know my turnbuckles are the original ones and I know they are open with cotter pins and old tape. If they are bronze, can I assume that I can reuse the originals or should I go ahead and replace them all due to old age and lack of maintenance? How do you test bronze fittings for cracks? Can I rerig my boat myself with enough time and patience or should I call in a professional? If I were to pay someone for a full inspection and re-rig, roughly how much would it cost? How much would I spend in materials if I do it myself?

Thanks for giving me something to mull over.

Best,

[Jim Lewis]

Have had my CD30K 25+ yrs and have replaced some of the rigging myself. Some on the mizzen and some on the main......
I try to replace the opposite whenever replacing a piece, but is
not always the case....once replaced bobstay only, and once replaced a piece on the mizzen only, and didn t replace split backstay when replaced forestay and bobstay this last go around.
I use good magnifier to inspect bottle type buckles and rest of solid pieces......so far this has worked for me, but all could let go tomorrow........as per previous post I always use dedicated rigging shop, (now West Marine) so equipment used to do the work is in good condition and proper tolerance.......remember a job you do yourself with patients on the boat you sail, is usually overkill and
researched..........a pro that does the job will not be out there with you when your rigging fails........

[RichMason]

I had the yard drop the mast when I stored the boat for my trip so it is easy to get at everything. I assume that I can just measure everything, buy new parts and make it all the same length with room for adjustment? With stay-locks you can take them on and offif the initial cut on the wire was too long correct? I'm thinking of going up a wire size to make the boat more suitable for offshore but I would like to hear from other owners of 28s that have done the calculations to see if the existing rig is robust enough.

[Andy Denmark]

A year ago the Carolinas Fleet had a seminar on this subject, given by Alan Arnfast, the head honcho at Sailcraft Services in Oriental. To say that there's more to this than meets the untrained eye is a definite understatement. I suggest you discuss this project with him and get a real professional's perspective before undertaking this job. Remember, rigging is but one part of a system and the "big picture" view is important -- tangs, chainplates, toggles, backing plates, etc. all need consideration.

Sailcraft is (and always has been) a Do-It-Yourself yard and Alan can work with you if you prefer to do the work yourself. There are Fleet members here in Oriental who will be happy to assist in the job as there are some aspects of it that require two or more people. If the mast is already down then you've saved the unstepping charge. You can work right on the premises and stay on the boat. They have the capability to test all the fittings, down to Magnafluxing if indicated, and the expertise to advise you/answer questions based on years of experience doing this.

Also, this is an ideal time to do a total refit on your mast -- wiring, antennas (antennae?), lights, sheaves, spare or spin halyards, etc., plus sound deadening.

As for going up a size on the rigging, the 28 is over-designed and over-engineered in that respect. Adding more weight aloft, having to change chainplate hole diameters to fit oversized pins, etc., may be totally uneccesary. Going to a different wire type might gain you some extra strength without all this trouble.

As an old Marine, I express my sincere thanks to you and your fellow men for the job you're doing over there. Keep your head down, eyes open and watch your six! You've got a great boat to come back to.
________
Mercedes-benz w125 rekordwagen specifications

[chase]

Didereaux,

Bronze is not brass, a cousin only- bronze is hard alloy, brass is soft.

right.... On a turnbuckle I recently replaced due to damage in hurricane Ophelia, I noticed that the open body was bronze but the screw, toggle/jaw were made from stainless. Perhaps the screw is plated bronze and I mistook it for stainless. I do think that many of the manufactures use stainless screws in the bronze, just hoping you can tell me why. Is it simply because it is cheaper? An all bronze unit, jaw and all, is pretty pricey.

As too your concerns about it. What I said earlier about metallurgists and engineers is mainstream information, not opinion. Information which is widely available from technical sources, manufacturers and sellers...everywhere!

No real concern here, bigger fish to fry right now. Just wondering why it is commonplace to use the stainless screw in the bronze body? Bronze is softer than stainless right? That's part of my rudimentary understanding of why it is stronger and also why I'm speculating that there is something about the stainless threading that may be superior to an all bronze unit. How about the jaws and the norseman type fittings? They are all stainless and thread into the bronze body. My portlight nuts/studs are all bronze and original, I believe. They tend to seize rather quickly and I wonder if the "natural patina" is what impedes smooth action.

Now I have a question for those who doubt this all. Why or what compels people to jump into a technical discussion without doing the slightest bit of study, nor having anything but a rudimentary singular association with the subject matter?

I mistook this as a forum to discuss Cape Dory sailboats and somehow ended up in the Metallurgical Societies engineering chatroom. OJ and Churchill are right, and so I'll just keep faking it as long as I can.

As the King of Siam was want to say, "It's a puzzlement!"

Glad to be of some entertainment value.

Best,

Chase

[chase]

Chase, I don't get it. I thought all farmers were basically required to have an alumininum boat laying around that they never get a chance to use. That is pretty much what my insurance man told me when we were going over my farmowners policy. He was right too, we had a 12 FT aluminum job sitting around. I did not tell him about our CD-30 cause it was not part of his business and he just didn't need to know. The great thing about being a farmer who goes sailing is that no matter how bad things are while sailing you have probably put up with worse while on the farm. Take care of those turnbuckles, Steve.

Steve,

I might need one today. My son got a remote controlled boat from his great-grandmother for Christmas. I just know it is going to stop responding in the middle of the pond. Maybe I'll tie a stick to it and send the dog after it. I better dig up a tractor inner tube.

Mostly sunny, 65° with some wind in Charleston today. Unbelievable.

Best,

Chase

[Steve Laume]

I knew some sport fishing types that had one of those RC boats that they used to use it to troll on a farm pond. I don't know if they ever hooked the really big one and lost the whole shebang but they sure were having some fun when they couldn't get to the big boat. Better keep the dog tied up, you may not need the stick to entice em, Steve. By the way I think they used stainless, not brass or bronze, fittings.

[Dick Villamil]

After sailing for the past 30 years with boats having both types of turnbuckles I concur wholeheartedly with those who favor barrel turnbuckles. Also, when using stainless steel, galling (fusion) is commonplace - especially when tightened under load. I am currently re-rigging my Typhoon with the open bronze turnbuckles. Bronze is self lubricating and is ealily checked for the length of remaining threads when adjusting the rigging. My old Morgan 24 and current C&C 34 had/have bronze turnbuckles and they are the best. Just use a screw driver and a creascent wrench to adjust. The existing barrel stainless turnbuckles on myTyphoon are dufficult to tell how much thread remains when adjusting - and when derigging for trailering. It is also difficult to adjust since you need an ice pick (a dangerous tool in the hands of even someone less clumsy than I!). Check with Rigging Only - they will say the same...