25D Upwind in Waves

[John Stone]

I don't understand your comment it's "not your experience." I'd need more context to understand it.

My comments are more general in nature. This is one of those things that the basics apply but each situation varies a little based on how strong the wind, the sea state, how much jib is unfurled, your particular boat and the condition of your sails. I don't know how much experience you have but most sailors have a very basic understanding of sail trim and I am being generous. My formative years were spent racing Olympic class dinghies and 1/4 and 1/2 tonners and I still read about and improve my knowledge of sail trim almost every time I sail. So experience matters. I have a fair amount if knowledge on sail trim but I'd still love to get Mark Ploch on my boat for a couple days of offshore sailing. I'd learn a ton.

But most people reduce the jib before the main and with the exception of carrying a very large jib, like a 150, it is usual wrong. Reduce the main first. But the tiller tells you if you have it right. So if you have lee helm then reduce the jib. Sheet leads settings for the jib are very important. Even breaking of the tell-tails along the luff, unless you are trying to twist the top of the sail.

With a genoa jib on my boat and a full main my first reef is in the main. Then I reduce the jib to working jib. Then another reef in the main. Then staysail with double reef main. Then just the stays'l and trys'l if I need to sail up wind or heaving two. Then just the trys'l if heaving to and just the stays'l with one of two reefs tied in and I am then sailing off the wind.

I know what balances my helm through experience and experimentation and I am still refining my knowledge. If I am on a different boat then the basics apply but I have to experiment to dial it in.

Good sail trim and sail combinations will transform a boat's performance under sail. You have gotten a lot of good info already on this thread. So keep practicing and reading and I'm sure you will come up with the combination and techniques that improve the performance of your boat.

[fritz3000g]

Thanks again John. I really appreciate your thoughts.

I especially appreciate this (below), which is great. I read a similar version of this in one of Vigor's books which I'm hoping to think more about this winter. I've annotated your comments with the wind speed I would expect to want to do these things upwind in a 25D.

With a genoa jib on my boat and a full main:

• my first reef is in the main. (13)
• Then I reduce the jib to working jib. (15)
• Then another reef in the main. (18)
• Then staysail with double reef main. (21)
• Then just the stays'l and trys'l if I need to sail up wind or heaving two. (25)
• Then just the trys'l if heaving to and just the stays'l with one of two reefs tied in and I am then sailing off the wind. (30)

I'd say that my experience is probably above average, having a few hundred hours of keelboat racing experience. I've never raced a boat with an old 150% genoa before, so that's what I'm trying to learn about now. I'm trying to avoid replacing it because I just bought the boat and am trying to catch up on my budget.

I don't understand your comment it's "not your experience." I'd need more context to understand it.

So what I've noticed is that when I have my 150% jib rolled to 100% and one reef in the main I typically get weather helm as the winds build. In my 25D, this setup seems balanced at about 13 knots and then I get weather helm at anything above that.

If - say at 17 knots - I leave the jib how it is and second-reef the main I tend to get lee helm. I've observed this twice. My explanation was that second-reefing the main without adjusting the jib caused the jib (forward of the CLR) to pull the same and the main (aft of the CLR) to pull less, thus changing the steering characteristics (CLR vs. COE) from weather to lee helm. Sailing upwind, I've understood lee helm to be a bad thing because with lee helm the rudder creates reverse lift.

Is second-reefing causing lee helm different than what you would expect to happen? Is lee helm really bad upwind?

[John Stone]

Thanks again John. I really appreciate your thoughts.

I especially appreciate this (below), which is great. I read a similar version of this in one of Vigor's books which I'm hoping to think more about this winter. I've annotated your comments with the wind speed I would expect to want to do these things upwind in a 25D.

With a genoa jib on my boat and a full main:

• my first reef is in the main. (13)
• Then I reduce the jib to working jib. (15)
• Then another reef in the main. (18)
• Then staysail with double reef main. (21)
• Then just the stays'l and trys'l if I need to sail up wind or heaving two. (25)
• Then just the trys'l if heaving to and just the stays'l with one of two reefs tied in and I am then sailing off the wind. (30)

I'd say that my experience is probably above average, having a few hundred hours of keelboat racing experience. I've never raced a boat with an old 150% genoa before, so that's what I'm trying to learn about now. I'm trying to avoid replacing it because I just bought the boat and am trying to catch up on my budget.

I don't understand your comment it's "not your experience." I'd need more context to understand it.

So what I've noticed is that when I have my 150% jib rolled to 100% and one reef in the main I typically get weather helm as the winds build. In my 25D, this setup seems balanced at about 13 knots and then I get weather helm at anything above that.

If - say at 17 knots - I leave the jib how it is and second-reef the main I tend to get lee helm. I've observed this twice. My explanation was that second-reefing the main without adjusting the jib caused the jib (forward of the CLR) to pull the same and the main (aft of the CLR) to pull less, thus changing the steering characteristics (CLR vs. COE) from weather to lee helm. Sailing upwind, I've understood lee helm to be a bad thing because with lee helm the rudder creates reverse lift.

Is second-reefing causing lee helm different than what you would expect to happen? Is lee helm really bad upwind?

I understand wanting to associate reefing actions with wind speed. It can be a good reference. But, it is really about what the helm tells you which of course is influenced by factors in addition to wind speed...such as old sails, point of sail, sea state etc. . I'd say what you are experiencing is probably influenced by the sails. Nothing improves boat speed or helm balance like new or at least recut sails. But the reality is we have to adjust to the real world which often finds us sailing with older sails. So we adjust our reefing regime accordingly.

I'd say your thinking is reasonable. You seem to have a pretty good grip on what you are doing. There is no getting around that old sail though.

I just dropped off my jib and main at the Doyle loft in NY. They are looking my main over to see if it needs to be recut. It's 6 years old but has 11,000 nm on it. The shape has suffered a bit.

[John Stone]

(Edited because I can't see the text LOL.)
Fritz3000g
Thought about this some more and reread your summary.

I would say if you had a smaller furling jib (say a 130) I think you can furl it down a bit more after you go to the double reef main instead of a stays'l you don't have. By that time you are not beating up wind. Not going to happen unless the water is still smooth from a just building wind or you have gotten into the lee of some land. Also, you can furl it a lot more if you are not close hauled. Sort of close reaching and certainly you can furl it down significantly if broad reaching or heaving to. Also, just because I want to mention, don't forget to use a preventer when sailing off the wind. Absolutely life and rig saving essential.

Others with experience in the 25D (I have none) will be able to tell you more about the limits of the boat in different wind conditions but I seriously doubt you can sail a 25D up wind in winds above 25-30 off-shore. That's going to push waves into the 6-10' range pretty quick depending on the length of time of the blow, depth of the water, current, etc. in shallower water it would be very ugly with those steep short period waves. You can close reach of course in more wind but you aren't making much progress up wind over the ground.

I'd be interested to hear what the 25D community thinks. I understand it's a tough capable boat.

[fritz3000g]

I'd say your thinking is reasonable. You seem to have a pretty good grip on what you are doing.

Thanks for the kind words!

There is no getting around that old sail though. I would say if you had a smaller furling jib (say a 130) I think you can furl it down a bit more after you go to the double reef main.
I just dropped off my jib and main at the Doyle loft in NY. They are looking my main over to see if it needs to be recut. It's 6 years old but has 11,000 nm on it. The shape has suffered a bit.

I suppose I could call a loft just to ask how much that might cost to recut or shorten. Good thought!

I'd be interested to hear what the 25D community thinks. I understand it's a tough capable boat.

Seems almost as good as you can do from my perspective, while remaining trailerable. Windward ability seems like the major shortcoming. Once I've optimized over the next 5 years, my hope is to one day get 3 kt VMG upwind in 15 kt winds and 4' waves (compared to the 2 I've been getting). Modest goals

Thanks again everyone for the great advice!

[Paul D.]

John's order of reducing sail fits my general procedures. I have a bit of an old main which likely creates more weather helm than ideal but that's the way I shorten sail pretty much.

[fmueller]

Xlent thread ...

I like hearing Johns sequence ...

I've posted in other threads about the 100% tri-radial jib I had made at Quantum/Thurston in Bristol. My CD 27 came from the factory with jib tracks on the coachroof, as well as tracks on the toe rail, and after 5 years of ownership and sailing (at first a 135, and then a high cut 115) - I decided to give a smaller working jib a try. You do give up a little speed and esp power vs chop when the wind is below 10 kts (1/2 Kt ??) but right at about 12 knots the 100 is pulling me along just as well as either larger jib, and then at 15+ knots it's pretty clear to me that Alberg designed the boat around 100% jibs (which is what you see in the drawings). I get less weather helm by far with the smaller jib. On a 15 knot day I am always above 5 knots @ 45 degrees apparent, 35-37 true, with 1/2 foot from the lee rail to blue water, and the helm can easily be held with 1-2 fingers. Including leeway I am easily doing 100 degree tacks. I can actually sail higher without luffing, but but speed and VMG drop quickly. Tacking is far easier because the sheets are inside all the stays. One downside, the "groove" is not as wide and the sail is VERY sensitive to trim and car position (inches). Also, if its a mild 8 - 10 knot breeze, where there can still be quite a bit of chop or bloody powerboat wake, I sometimes wish I had more sail power to move thru it.

My reefing sequence is:

Main, 1st reef at 18 knots
Main, 2nd reef by 25 knots
Gusty ? roll in 9" jib luff, OR pull the boom traveler way up and twist off the top of the reefed main, then maybe move the jib car back and twist off the top of the jib..

Since this jib is quite high aspect to begin with there is less shape degradation when reefed (it has not reefing aids because Steve Thurston at Quantum said there was little point, and it would perform better fully deployed without those disrupting air flow).

I came across Nantucket Sound headed for the Vinyard again this year in early September. We had 20 knots fr NNE for three days (gusting higher) and I had to leave on the third day (it was supposed to abate), so I had 2 reefs in the main, jib full out ... it was close hauled for the first 6 miles out to green can "1" before I could bear off 30 degrees to toward Edgartown. I scooted along just fine at about 5 knots. Seas were a very well developed 4', sometimes more, because from the troughs sitting in the cockpit I could not see over the some of the crests. Some were breaking, but not violently. Whitecaps and foam trailing all around. The good thing is that when it gets that developed, my smaller boat "fits" in between the waves and rides with less pounding. I had deflated and lashed my dinghy to the foredeck/cabin with a very robust strap. But I made one mistake, I should have taken my Fortress anchor off the pulpit - even though it was lashed it loosened, and there was no way for me to safely go up there and take it down or even re-lash. Luckily no harm ... live and learn. I got to Edgartown in 6 hours and was beat.

[John Stone]

Xlent thread ...

I like hearing Johns sequence ...

I've posted in other threads about the 100% tri-radial jib I had made at Quantum/Thurston in Bristol. My CD 27 came from the factory with jib tracks on the coachroof, as well as tracks on the toe rail, and after 5 years of ownership and sailing (at first a 135, and then a high cut 115) - I decided to give a smaller working jib a try. You do give up a little speed and esp power vs chop when the wind is below 10 kts (1/2 Kt ??) but right at about 12 knots the 100 is pulling me along just as well as either larger jib, and then at 15+ knots it's pretty clear to me that Alberg designed the boat around 100% jibs (which is what you see in the drawings). I get less weather helm by far with the smaller jib. On a 15 knot day I am always above 5 knots @ 45 degrees apparent, 35-37 true, with 1/2 foot from the lee rail to blue water, and the helm can easily be held with 1-2 fingers. Including leeway I am easily doing 100 degree tacks. I can actually sail higher without luffing, but but speed and VMG drop quickly. Tacking is far easier because the sheets are inside all the stays. One downside, the "groove" is not as wide and the sail is VERY sensitive to trim and car position (inches). Also, if its a mild 8 - 10 knot breeze, where there can still be quite a bit of chop or bloody powerboat wake, I sometimes wish I had more sail power to move thru it.

My reefing sequence is:

Main, 1st reef at 18 knots
Main, 2nd reef by 25 knots
Gusty ? roll in 9" jib luff, OR pull the boom traveler way up and twist off the top of the reefed main, then maybe move the jib car back and twist off the top of the jib..

Since this jib is quite high aspect to begin with there is less shape degradation when reefed (it has not reefing aids because Steve Thurston at Quantum said there was little point, and it would perform better fully deployed without those disrupting air flow).

I came across Nantucket Sound headed for the Vinyard again this year in early September. We had 20 knots fr NNE for three days (gusting higher) and I had to leave on the third day (it was supposed to abate), so I had 2 reefs in the main, jib full out ... it was close hauled for the first 6 miles out to green can "1" before I could bear off 30 degrees to toward Edgartown. I scooted along just fine at about 5 knots. Seas were a very well developed 4', sometimes more, because from the troughs sitting in the cockpit I could not see over the some of the crests. Some were breaking, but not violently. Whitecaps and foam trailing all around. The good thing is that when it gets that developed, my smaller boat "fits" in between the waves and rides with less pounding. I had deflated and lashed my dinghy to the foredeck/cabin with a very robust strap. But I made one mistake, I should have taken my Fortress anchor off the pulpit - even though it was lashed it loosened, and there was no way for me to safely go up there and take it down or even re-lash. Luckily no harm ... live and learn. I got to Edgartown in 6 hours and was beat.

Great summary Fred. Well done.

[fritz3000g]

I decided to give a smaller working jib a try. You do give up a little speed and esp power vs chop when the wind is below 10 kts (1/2 Kt ??) but right at about 12 knots the 100 is pulling me along just as well as either larger jib, and then at 15+ knots it's pretty clear to me that Alberg designed the boat around 100% jibs (which is what you see in the drawings).

Fascinating!

I do have a 100% jib. Sounds like you'd suggest the opposite of what I'd been thinking. Based on your reasoning, I should keep the jib up, and only switch to the genny if I'm expecting light (but usable) winds for a long period of time. I like it! That works better too because I can always go forward and change TO the genny in light wind/waves, where changing the other direction would be much harder. That strategy also fits well with keeping my 150% genny for now rather than cutting down.

Quotes from other threads:

My 27 has OEM coach roof tracks and I had a small dacron tri-radial jib made by Quantum/Bristol last summer. The sheets run thru blocks on the toe rail tracks and then up to blocks on the coachroof tracks.

I did not like the initial sheeting angles and we lifted the clew about 5 inches ... I may have another 5 inches removed this winter ... still deciding. Also, it took me some time to get used to a sail where "inches" on both the sheet and position of the car make a difference. And the boat needs to be sailed with more precision. The "groove" is not as wide.

Reading about tri-radial sails, it looks to me like the primary advantage is durability. Would you agree?

I'm not sure I understand your comments about the clew height or why you have the sheets running through two sets of blocks. Why would those things make a difference?

Thanks!

[fmueller]

I’ve been spending time thinking if there might be a good way of deploying a code 1 … it’s really in lightish air off wind where I miss a larger jib especially on a long nontacking reach or run - like from the bottom of Narragansett Bay up to the Elizabeth’s and beyond in a civilized prevailing southwesterly where I might not tack all day. Switching roller mounted jibs regularly is not my idea of fun single handed … but the race guys at our club do it a lot… that’s a whole crew and a reasonable task for two or three … a bunch of the club Racers take the jib down as a matter of course each race day. Leaving a jib rolled up on a stay is apparently not as good for shape longevity as properly folded and stowed. Also I see more and more jib socks in the racing crowd because Uv protection on a high performance sail is a no no.

[fritz3000g]

Fred, I edited my earlier comment after reading your other threads.

[Steve Darwin]

I'll echo Fred's observations. After one season sailing Buzzards Bay with a 135% hank-on genoa, I "retreated" to the 100% working jib and retired the larger sail. Seems to me like the 25D was designed for the smaller headsail - which must be carried at all times. Closer sheeting than the genoa to tracks on the side decks. When the wind exceeds 25 kts, the boat performs beautifully on a reach or run with the jib alone, but definitely needs some mainsail to point. Next year I'm going to a roller-furler but keeping the jib to 100%. We like what we know. - Steve D.