25D Upwind in Waves

[fritz3000g]

Picking up off this topic about 25D upwind sailing, and hoping to drill down on heavier winds.

I realize (and have asked before) about 25kt+ winds. I realize that it's unrealistic to expect any forward progress in those conditions in a 25D, and that trying would be "trying" to put it gently.

So... I'm wondering what's the best strategy with a 150% furling genoa on this kind of boat (25d) for beating into 15-20 kt winds and 4-7 ft waves, where I might expect (but haven't been able to achieve) reasonable performance? In my area waves like that are typically about 20 ft apart and steep.

Here's what I've tried:

1. Leave everything up. This puts the rail deep in the water and requires me to luff the main with each gust. Uncomfortable sailing at about 2kt VMG, and I assume I'm ruining the sails.
2. Furl genoa down to 100% and reef main once. Foresail shape is awful. I get about 2 kts VMG while tacking across 125 deg.
3. Leave genoa full and reef main twice. Still feels over-canvassed and I get lee helm. Didn't sail long enough to establish VMG, but I'd like to try again just to see. I've heard lee helm is no good upwind because it gives the rudder reverse lift.

Things I've thought of trying:

1. Raising the 100% jib unstayed on an extra halyard. I'm assuming it would perform worse than a jib on the stay, but maybe better than the furled genoa.
2. Creating an extra dyneema "stay" by running a line from the masthead through a snatch block mounted behind the forestay. This would give me something like a cutter rig, and I'd only tension the "stay" when in use. Then I'd raise the 100% jib up this "stay" with an extra halyard.
3. Putting a couple swim noodles around the forestay (as high as I can reach) before I furl to take out some bagginess.

I realize that gentlemen never sail to weather, and I appreciate that. At least I won't have to avoid them out there when I'm doing it

[gonesail]

get a cutter rig and drop everything except the staysail. enjoy a cold beer

[Frenchy]

I think I would try a 100 % jib or a blade jib coupled with a single reef in the main. Try sheeting the
jib to a point aft of normal so that the foot is relatively flat and the top twists off, spilling wind. The main
can be flattened with the traveler and vang. Halyard and outhaul should be tight. If one reef is still
overpowering the boat, try two.
With the waves and all, try to strike a balance between having fullness in the sails for powering
through and not being so full that the boat heels excessively and loses speed. If your budget won't allow for a
new jib, maybe try for used at one of the sail warehouses, as I think a 150% Genoa is just not going to work
in those conditions. Anyway, that's my 2 cents. - Jean

[fritz3000g]

I think I would try a 100 % jib or a blade jib coupled with a single reef in the main

How would you attach it? Would you try to hoist it unstayed or to try and run a dyneema "stay" like I'd described?

[Frenchy]

I would replace the 150 Genoa with a roller-furling working jib if the conditions you describe are fairly common.
If winds are usually moderate, you could opt for a 125 genoa and roller-reef down to 100 on windy days. A sail
maker would be good to talk to on this. I suspect a 150 is unsuitable for even moderate winds, but I could be wrong.
That sail is probably made of lighter cloth, not suitable for high winds. Also, as you said
in your original post, it has a terrible shape when roller reefed.
Adding a staysail gets complicated. You have to think about running backstays to support the mast,
additional deck and mast hardware etc. Opting for a different foresail would be more logical, I think- Good luck, Jean

[fritz3000g]

Adding a staysail gets complicated. You have to think about running backstays to support the mast,
additional deck and mast hardware etc.

Is that true even if you run the second halyard to the masthead and only use it when the genoa is furled?

[Frenchy]

No, you don't need more mast support if you add an extra stay near the masthead, like a removable solent stay, for
example. It might be a good idea to talk to a rigger before committing to anything.
Personally, I would go for a 125 or 135 genoa on a furler and if you need something for light air, an
asymmetrical spinnaker. - Jean

[Frenchy]

Fritz, here's an article you might be interested in, from Practical Sailor - Jean


https://www.practical-sailor.com/blog/t ... forestay-2

[fritz3000g]

Fritz, here's an article you might be interested in, from Practical Sailor - Jean

Thanks Jean - this article is great, and now I have a word (solent staysail) for what I'd like to try! I'd like to try this first because I have the necessary gear so it would be essentially free.

I do see your point about a smaller furling headsail, because slowly beating into waves is much more frustrating than sailing 0.5 kt slower in calm conditions.

I also see that this article recommends a "padded luff" which is essentially what I was proposing with the swim noodles. Might experiment with that too.

Wonder if anyone's seen a DIY version of that?

[Joe Myerson]

I have a 25D, which I sail on often-choppy and windy Buzzards Bay, and I often brave the bay's "square waves" in winds of up to 25 knots. I have a 135% roller-furled genoa and a standard mainsail with two reef points.

If the wind is above 15 knots, I usually leave the mooring with one reef in the main. At 20 or so knots, I roll the genny to about 110%.

If the wind picks up while I'm on the water, I will furl the genny even more and also tuck in the second reef.

If I know for sure that the winds will be high, I will leave the mooring under the second reef. And, for best heavy-weather performance, I will change to my so-called "storm jib," which is probably 100%.

While I can reef the main easily by heaving to, or by using my autopilot to keep the boat headed directly into the wind, I cannot change jibs while under way, as I only have one jib halyard. I also sail singlehanded.

With its short waterline and high wind profile, the 25D was not designed or built for performance. But it is an extremely seaworthy craft. Using these sail combinations, you should be able to beat upwind against 25-knot winds and steep chop. You'll be slogging along, and you won't point very high--but your 25D should be able to handle it if you can.

--Joe

[fritz3000g]

And, for best heavy-weather performance, I will change to my so-called "storm jib," which is probably 100%

You mean you change sails in the furler? Guess that's doable. Takes you about what - 20 minutes?

[Joe Myerson]

You mean you change sails in the furler? Guess that's doable. Takes you about what - 20 minues

That's about right. I have to do it at the mooring. It's a PITA, but if it looks like there's going to be a few days of strong winds, it's worth the effort.

[fritz3000g]

Using these sail combinations, you should be able to beat upwind against 25-knot winds and steep chop. You'll be slogging along, and you won't point very high--but your 25D should be able to handle it if you can.

Joe, what angle are you able to point in these conditions, and what VMG can you achieve? Do you have a sense for the difference that it makes to have new sails?

[John Stone]

Jean has given you some good tips.

The wind is part of the issue. But waves maybe more so. A 150 is way too big a sai for those conditions even reefedl. And furled deep enough is very hard on the leech and foot.

A single reef in the main is not enough thus the Lee helm. On my 36 in 25 kts I am sailing up wind with a working jib and a double reefed main. You want the boat more upright. No more than about 20° heel.

I'd recommend a working jib partially furled and a double reefed main. Your idea of a solent stay is good but a lot of work for the little you might use it. Tensioning dyneema can be a challenge. I have a heat treated dyneema forestay for my stays'l. Works great but took a while to get it right. I tension through a 2:1 pendant run to the rope drum on my manual windlass.

Reefing down for upwind sailing can produce counter intuitive sensations. We tend to under reef. Sometimes I think I have over reefed. The boat heel reduces dramatically and the noise drops significantly. But one look at the GPS or speedo indicates we are sailing much faster.

I think this phenomenon is because in light wind conditions it takes a lot to get moving. And we experience fine sailing as the wind comes up while the seas are still flat. So more heeling equates to more speed. But as the wave height increases that is no longer true. Keep the heeling at 20 degrees or less and make sure the helm is balanced with deeper reefs in the main then you might think and you'll be pleased with how well behaved and fast your boat will be.

In big seas you might only get 60° apparent. If you try to sail too close upwind you'll start plunging into the oncoming waves then start to hobby horse and you will barely make headway. It's also hard on the rig. Crack off until you achieve hull speed and work your way back up wind. You'll find a sweet spot where the helm is balanced, the boat is making good speed and you're not plunging into the waves. All sailboats benefit this way offshore. The smaller the boat the sooner you have to take these steps. But all boats experience it at some point. It's why close sheet angles on race boats are meaningless offshore in higher wind and seas. They can't sail much higher than we can.

You can sail upwind, though maybe not point well, with just a stays'l and keep the helm somewhat balanced. That's because the center of effort does not go way forward when you drop the main especially if you can get where you need to go at 60'ish degrees. I have sailed this way for days offshore in 35 kts and 10-15' seas. It's not comfortable but we make 6 kts and we are not putting a lot of stress on the boat.

So think reduced heel (about 20°) and balanced helm and keep adjusting sail shape till you get there.

**I'm typing this on my phone and the screen is hard to see so I hope there are not too many typos.

[fritz3000g]

Thanks John - it's really good to hear from your experience.

Your idea of a solent stay is good but a lot of work for the little you might use it.

You're probably right. Taking the 20 minutes to change out the headsail probably makes more sense.

A single reef in the main is not enough thus the Lee helm.

My experience is that adding a second reef makes it worse not better. I'd assumed this was because it moved the center of effort forwards. Am I misunderstanding?

Found this discussion on DIY luff padding. Sounds like some like it, others not. Mostly not.