CD30 Refrigeration and Icebox Rebuild

[jbenagh]

I'm thinking of adding refrigeration to Christine C (1983 CD30). I'd like to refit the entire icebox compartment with better insulation since it melts ice pretty quickly. I'd appreciate your thoughts on the following plan. I can't do an internal-to-existing box like Jim Walsh did since the icebox on a CD30 is significantly smaller than the CD31.
I'm looking at the Isotherm 2351 which is an oval-shaped cooler, like a hotel freezer, that is 13x4x9in. If my measurements are right, I'll have a 2.24cu ft fridge with a freezer inside the oval to make ice. This size is larger than Isotherm likes for a freezer but if we start out with frozen stuff we should be able to make it two weeks with fresh/frozen food.
The existing icebox extends pretty far under the existing cabinetry so I need to think through how to do this to fit large things in a small opening. Here's what I'm thinking:
Cut out countertop over icebox at a severe angle (like 6 or 8:1; I assume it's 1/2in based on other measurements), leaving a 1-2 in lip for future scarf except at the engine side. Won't be able to cut that angle against sliders so just leave enough room to do it later. This leaves an opening 22in athwartship and 21in fore/aft.
This leaves about 5 in under the starboard side slider and 9 inches under the aft galley slider and of course 2in forward.
Remove all the formica from existing counter starboard of engine access.
Fit in two pieces of 2in closed cell foam on the bottom and against the hull, three pieces against the engine and fore and aft ends. Overlap them correctly.
Fit two pieces over the top, also overlapped. The lower one will be 26in athwartship and 25in fore/aft. It might be necessary to cut this into two or three pieces to fit it in. The upper one will definitely need to be cut. Then remove the top pieces.
Build a box of 1/4in Coosa (might use 1/8 G10 but Coosa is easier to work with) inside the foam probably with finger joints. Cut the opening in the top (which remarkably will be just about the size of the original) leaving a 1/2in lip. Make a template with the opening 1/2 in larger into the foam. Cut the two top pieces with a 45 degree angle for the lid. Remove the box pieces, bring home. Round the lip of the opening ~1/8in both sides. Glass the interior of the box with 1708 glass (not the bottom if I use G10), extra strips at all joints and paint interior. Test fit the fridge unit and drill the right holes in the box. Pre-install captive nuts and washers using epoxy to hold in place.
Back at the boat fit all the insulation except the top with spray non-expanding foam to fill the gaps including near the hull. Cut the scarf on the old countertop using power plane and hand tools. Test fit the top foam insulation, trimming at captive fasteners if needed.
Install the top foam and glass with 1708 over the lip and paint.
Test fit plywood counter. Cut the icebox opening 1/2in bigger than top foam opening. Make a 1/4in lip the exact size of the foam opening and glue to counter top. Scarph the top to match the opening.
Carve out the foam of the door lip. Apply 1708 glass to the foam of the lid with 6oz over the wood. Paint the lid and the opening.
Install the fridge unit under aft lid, drilling holes aft for the coolant tubing and wherever needed for the thermostat (probably aft also to prevent damage from shifting contents). Fill gaps with non-expanding spray foam.
Fit the counter plywood, trimming and adding spray foam as required. Then glue in the top and clamp with drywall screws. Cure, then remove screws.
Apply 1/4in foam rubber to both lid mating surfaces, all around.
Apply self-adhesive countertop material to the counter where there's nothing. Might remove the trim at bottom of sliders to make a cleaner joint.

Jeff

[Jim Walsh]

Very ambitious project Jeff but you clearly have the skills to get it done properly. You will certainly have a better insulated box than I was able to devise but I had the constraints of a retrofit as opposed to a full rebuild. It’ll be very interesting to see the documentation of your project here. Good luck.

[John Stone]

I'm thinking of adding refrigeration to Christine C (1983 CD30). I'd like to refit the entire icebox compartment with better insulation since it melts ice pretty quickly. I'd appreciate your thoughts on the following plan. I can't do an internal-to-existing box like Jim Walsh did since the icebox on a CD30 is significantly smaller than the CD31.
I'm looking at the Isotherm 2351 which is an oval-shaped cooler, like a hotel freezer, that is 13x4x9in. If my measurements are right, I'll have a 2.24cu ft fridge with a freezer inside the oval to make ice. This size is larger than Isotherm likes for a freezer but if we start out with frozen stuff we should be able to make it two weeks with fresh/frozen food.
The existing icebox extends pretty far under the existing cabinetry so I need to think through how to do this to fit large things in a small opening. Here's what I'm thinking:
Cut out countertop over icebox at a severe angle (like 6 or 8:1; I assume it's 1/2in based on other measurements), leaving a 1-2 in lip for future scarf except at the engine side. Won't be able to cut that angle against sliders so just leave enough room to do it later. This leaves an opening 22in athwartship and 21in fore/aft.
This leaves about 5 in under the starboard side slider and 9 inches under the aft galley slider and of course 2in forward.
Remove all the formica from existing counter starboard of engine access.
Fit in two pieces of 2in closed cell foam on the bottom and against the hull, three pieces against the engine and fore and aft ends. Overlap them correctly.
Fit two pieces over the top, also overlapped. The lower one will be 26in athwartship and 25in fore/aft. It might be necessary to cut this into two or three pieces to fit it in. The upper one will definitely need to be cut. Then remove the top pieces.
Build a box of 1/4in Coosa (might use 1/8 G10 but Coosa is easier to work with) inside the foam probably with finger joints. Cut the opening in the top (which remarkably will be just about the size of the original) leaving a 1/2in lip. Make a template with the opening 1/2 in larger into the foam. Cut the two top pieces with a 45 degree angle for the lid. Remove the box pieces, bring home. Round the lip of the opening ~1/8in both sides. Glass the interior of the box with 1708 glass (not the bottom if I use G10), extra strips at all joints and paint interior. Test fit the fridge unit and drill the right holes in the box. Pre-install captive nuts and washers using epoxy to hold in place.
Back at the boat fit all the insulation except the top with spray non-expanding foam to fill the gaps including near the hull. Cut the scarf on the old countertop using power plane and hand tools. Test fit the top foam insulation, trimming at captive fasteners if needed.
Install the top foam and glass with 1708 over the lip and paint.
Test fit plywood counter. Cut the icebox opening 1/2in bigger than top foam opening. Make a 1/4in lip the exact size of the foam opening and glue to counter top. Scarph the top to match the opening.
Carve out the foam of the door lip. Apply 1708 glass to the foam of the lid with 6oz over the wood. Paint the lid and the opening.
Install the fridge unit under aft lid, drilling holes aft for the coolant tubing and wherever needed for the thermostat (probably aft also to prevent damage from shifting contents). Fill gaps with non-expanding spray foam.
Fit the counter plywood, trimming and adding spray foam as required. Then glue in the top and clamp with drywall screws. Cure, then remove screws.
Apply 1/4in foam rubber to both lid mating surfaces, all around.
Apply self-adhesive countertop material to the counter where there's nothing. Might remove the trim at bottom of sliders to make a cleaner joint.

Jeff

Jeff, without a drawing I am afraid I am not able to follow what you are describing. Seems a little complicated but maybe that’s because I don’t quite understand.

I can say this though, a small fridge is almost always better. And a way to think about it is you won’t need the size of the existing box since it won’t have to hold a whole lot of ice plus your food. For example, I think the box on the FR is about 4.5 cf. but before I set off on a long trip I load it with about 65 lbs of ice. I bet I only have 2 cf or less of space for food and that’s always been enough. You may have other considerations. I’m not suggesting a larger box is wrong. I’m just sharing that you may not need as big of a box as you think. Of course we don’t put a lot of food in our ice box as many things don’t need to be refrigerated such as eggs, mayonnaise, and butter. About the only things we put in the icebox are meats, cheese, milk, a few condiments, and sometimes a couple oranges and apples if we want them cold during hot wx.

Another thing I’d share is this. Completely rebuilding a box from scratch is often easier and will end up better than trying to perform a major alteration of an existing icebox. A minor alteration such as performed by Jim W seems like a great way to go if you are at all undecided. I’m the last guy to tell ya not to take a saws-all and wrecking bar to your boat. Been there, done that, love the results.

We have a 35 liter (1.2 cf) Engle 12v frig we use for overland 4x4 camping. It holds everything we need for 7-10 days for the two of us.

So, just some things to think about.

Here is a link to our icebox rebuild. http://www.farreachvoyages.com/iceboxcharttable.html

[Steve Laume]

I have planned on doing the same project on Raven this winter.

I have a little book on upgrading your ice box somewhere. Having read it in the past, you may be taking the best approach by taking the lid off and really starting over. Two points that I took away from the read were that cold sinks so the bottom is most important and 4"of foam insulation is the point beyond which there is limited gain.

I worked on Raven's box, years ago. I did a whole grid of holes from inside the box and filled all the voids around it with spray foam the epoxied the plugs back in and painted it. I also added sound dampening insulation in the engine compartment which provides some thermal insulation as well. These modifications and a blanket over the food items allows me to keep ice for about 5 days. Much better than the original "insulation".

Before I start tossing electrical energy into the box, I intend to add two more one inch layers of foam on the inside. I may go three on the bottom. I am hoping to get everything in through the existing opening but time will tell. The rigid foam board could go in, in smaller pieces. I will be using spray foam to fill all the gaps as I go.

G-10 seems like an expensive solution to lining the box. I plan on using the same type of panel material you often see in public rest rooms, only putting the back side out. The face has a textured finish that would be harder to keep clean and would show any fillets or seams that I would make to facilitate installation. I would be making epoxy fillets and could easily tape the seams with glass cloth and epoxy before painting everything. I am hoping this will allow me to do the entire job with the top still on.

I hope to go with one of the water cooled Isotherm units. The problem on the CD-30 is that the sink drain is a long way from the ice box with a path through the engine compartment. I want to mount the compressor in the back of the little cabinet next to the ice box. That will keep the cooling tubes out of the engine compartment and make for short wiring runs. I talked to the Isotherm rep and explained the sink / engine compartment situation to him and he agreed that, that would not be ideal. What I really wanted to know is if the through hull fitting with the heat exchanger could be installed, blanked off function properly. He assured me that it would, so I could put the through hull fitting right in the same cabinet. This would keep the entire system all together with no long tubing or wire runs.

What John Stone has not taken into consideration when determining fridge size, is keeping cold beer and where to put a large fish, when I catch one and want to bring it home for the freezer. I can certainly afford to lose 2" all around but don't want to go too small, Steve.

https://www.lowes.com/pl/Fiberglass-rei ... 1971214752

[jbenagh]

Thanks for the votes of confidence! I'll try to pose some annotated photos since I'd love for you to spot any issues before I cut everything apart

John S: I thought about a standalone cooler but the only place to put it on a CD30 is in the ice box and would require a similar effort.

Steve L: For the interior of the box, I was worried about stuff damaging the floor of the box in rough seas, thus fairly thin G10 just in that location. Do you think the plastic FRP stuff is tough enough to survive a wine bottle or can dropping on it as you come off a wave?

Steve L: The Isotherm 2351 is one of the water cooled units. I think I will have to locate the compressor under the sink. I'll have to try to insulate the lines as they go through the engine compartment. I use the cabinet you mention for storage.

Steve L: how will you handle the opening? It seems like the countertop cutout will need to be larger to accommodate a V-shaped lid.

I'm thinking 4in of insulation top and bottom as that allows enough height for a milk carton to stand up. If there's more space after I disassemble I will add more insulation to the bottom. I suppose I could take some away from the top and use an exterior blanket temporarily. I came up with the volume just by using all the available space. I assume I could block off volume using insulation if needed in the future. It is a bit bigger than needed: we have a 1.5cu ft cooler we use to bring stuff to the boat for long trips.

Jeff

[John Stone]

Jeff,
I think the info I provided on our Engle 12v was confusing. I'm not suggesting a portable refrigerator. I was using it as an example of how much or how little a refrigerator you might actually need when you design a replacement for the one you have on your boat now.

I am a big fan of G10 but I would not recommend it for your frig. I used 1/4" BS 1088 marine ply covered on both sides with cloth and epoxy. Very easy to shape and work with and stiff. Fairly inexpensive But if you want solid glass I would go with premanufactured FRP panels you can purchase from McMaster-Carr.

Something like this: https://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/126/3868

or this: https://www.mcmaster.com/fiberglass-(fr ... kness~1-4/

I can't comment on the stuff from Lowes as I have never used it.

[Jim Walsh]

I used a product sold by LBI. Just took a quick look and it appears to be priced quite a bit lower than the McMaster-Carr product. Perhaps comparing apples and oranges?
https://www.lbifiberglass.com/product-c ... -products/

[John Stone]

I used a product sold by LBI. Just took a quick look and it appears to be priced quite a bit lower than the McMaster-Carr product. Perhaps comparing apples and oranges?
https://www.lbifiberglass.com/product-c ... -products/

Which product did you use? I’m not familiar with LBi. Did you use the solid glass or the cored panel?

[Jim Walsh]

I used a product sold by LBI. Just took a quick look and it appears to be priced quite a bit lower than the McMaster-Carr product. Perhaps comparing apples and oranges?
https://www.lbifiberglass.com/product-c ... -products/

Which product did you use? I’m not familiar with LBi. Did you use the solid glass or the cored panel?

Solid 3/16” GP01.

[Steve Laume]

Steve S: I thought about a standalone cooler but the only place to put it on a CD30 is in the ice box and would require a similar effort.

I am not an advocate of a stand alone cooler unless I expect to catch fish to bring home and don't want, or have room, to put them in the ice box. I know I can insulate the existing ice box better than any cooler and it is already taking up the space.

Steve L: For the interior of the box, I was worried about stuff damaging the floor of the box in rough seas, thus fairly thin G10 just in that location. Do you think the plastic FRP stuff is tough enough to survive a wine bottle or can dropping on it as you come off a wave?

I just went out in the shop to do a destructive test. I laid a piece of the 1/16" hardware store panel over a piece of foam and wailed on it with a hammer, hard enough to drive nails. If I hit it with the edge of the hammer, it did dent it. If I hit it with the full face, it sustained no damage. It is stiff enough to hold a flat shape and flexible enough to conform to a large radius. You can walk right out of any big box store with a 4X8 sheet. If your wind hits that hard, you may have bigger problems.

Steve L: The Isotherm 2351 is one of the water cooled units. I think I will have to locate the compressor under the sink. I'll have to try to insulate the lines as they go through the engine compartment. I use the cabinet you mention for storage.

I value the under sink area more than the back of that little cabinet. It doesn't seem like putting the compressor in a hot engine compartment would be the most efficient place for it. I suppose you are going to tuck it way up in the back as far outboard as you can get it. I have a high fiddle back there to store a few things. I also cut in an inspection port to access the space between the fuel tank and the engine. Then comes the problem of running the cooling lines through an already crowded engine compartment and trying to keep them from being affected by the heat. All I keep in the other cabinet is paper towels, plastic bags and food containers. There may still be enough room for some of that stuff if I tuck the compressor up high and as far outboard as possible.

Steve L: how will you handle the opening? It seems like the countertop cutout will need to be larger to accommodate a V-shaped lid.

I could cut in a bigger opening and give it a V shape or add to the existing lid. Remember that the cold tends to stay down so the top is the least important.

I'm thinking 4in of insulation top and bottom as that allows enough height for a milk carton to stand up. If there's more space after I disassemble I will add more insulation to the bottom. I suppose I could take some away from the top and use an exterior blanket temporarily. I came up with the volume just by using all the available space. I assume I could block off volume using insulation if needed in the future. It is a bit bigger than needed: we have a 1.5cu ft cooler we use to bring stuff to the boat for long trips.

Since I already did the spray foam outside, I am figuring I already have 2" of insulation. It would be very easy to drill a bunch of holes and fill them with foam before you start on the inside. I had planned on adding 2" to the interior but might go to 3" on the bottom and the engine side. I had planned on maintaining the drain but maybe that is unnecessary and would simplify things if it were eliminated. I used the blanket, directly on top of the food, not on the counter top.

Jeff

I am glad to hear that you are doing this. Hopefully, you get started very soon so you can show me what lies ahead. It will be great to not have to worry about whether or not certain foods are still eatable, always have cold beer and not have to sniff around, looking for the ever more elusive block ice, Steve.

[jbenagh]

Steve, I think I'm coming around to your plan. It looks like the cabinetry disassembly will be really challenging. I think I'm going to get a few pieces of foam and mess around with fitting them in the existing icebox. If I can make the top opening fall in the right place, I'll do the holes and foam in the existing box and then add the insulation internal.
I'll keep you posted on progress.
Jeff

[jbenagh]

So I got around to installing refrigeration on my CD30. Yesterday Christine C finally made some cold and we may be free from the ice man! Here's the thermometer in the freezer showing 31F:

I used the Isotherm 2351 kit with the water cooled condensor installed under the galley sink drain.
First, I started on the icebox insulation like Steve Laume suggested, drilling 1/4in holes on a grid and filling with "Window and Door" foam. I found a 4in grid worked OK; a couple spots I didn't get foam coming out the of the adjacent hole and tried 2in and then 1in grid but I found that where 4in didn't work, the insulation was pretty intact so if foam came right back at me I didn't get too aggressive with holes. in the area toward the hull the factory insulation was quite intact. Toward the engine it was less good. It took close to 20 cans of foam to fill everything, including my hair, but I wasn't real patient with letting it expand and I think you could do it with 10 cans. Also, a lot spilled out into the area under the icebox without really filling anything so try to block that off.

Then I cut 1in closed cell foam sheet to fit. Had to make templates and fit it in with each "plank" having a specific location. I added extra pieces to make a lower shelf similar to the factory icebox. I ended up with 3in toward the engine compartment and 2in toward the hull and aft end and 1in on the forward end. The reduced thickness at the ends was dictated by the location of the access opening which I decided not to change and where the evaporator would be located. And that the forward end had a lot of factory/spray foam insulation.


Then I glassed over the foam using biaxial cloth; 2 layers everywhere but 3 layers at the very bottom where I expect to drop stuff. I precut the cloth, labeled them and set them aside since once the epoxy flows, it's a mess! It took 1.5qts of epoxy. I think Steve and Jim's idea on other panels might be a big time saver. Then faired with microbaloons and sanded.



I mounted the compressor under the sink, against the stove bulkhead. There's just enough room for the galley plumbing and the charcoal filter housing although I'll spill into the bilge now when changing the filter. Note this photo is just a test fit; I cleaned it up later and now need to secure all the rewires and refrigerant lines. And I needed to make a plywood plate to attache to the top of the box to attach the evaporator since its holes were not in useful locations for the box.

I added a separate 20A Blue Sea breaker and 10ga wires to power the whole thing. It's really quiet, certainly quieter than 12kt breeze through the shrouds and also quieter than the home fridge. It drew 4A while trying to drive it to 25F.
Thanks for the advice and inspiration!
Jeff

[Jim Walsh]

Very cool....(pun intended) the best thing about these projects is that you’ll never have to do them again.....and shagging ice is a thing of the past.

[John Stone]

Far out. Well done. I’d be interested in a follow up report...once cool down and stowed with food, how many ah in 24 hours. 4ah to get it cold sounds about right but then it should run intermittently. That 24 hour number is what I am interest in learning.

Once again, good job thinking about it, developing a plan, and seeing it through to the end.

Jim W...schlepping ice is one of those character building experiences that makes life worth living. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

[jbenagh]

Jim, I'm with you on schlepping ice. John, I've schlepped enough ice to build all the character I want to have Especially after last year in Maine when I rowed into the wind 2 miles in both directions (!) to get ice.
I am really interested to see how the new insulation works out; I left the recording thermometer in the icebox so I can see what happens over time but I need to go back to download the data. I'm also really interested in the 24 hour numbers for current draw. Our water is still close to 50F so it'll be interesting to see what happens when we're closer to 65-70 summer temps. I figure running the engine with the compressor is now a wash vs. with ice motoring killed the temps. I'll post again when I have some run time in the books.
Thanks for the kind words! You are all the hardest working and cleverest boat folks out there!
Jeff
PS I fixed the size on some of the photos that were thumbnail size