Unanswered varnishing questions

Don't forget to snap some photos while you work on that boat project, then share them here.

Moderator: Jim Walsh

LilYachty
Posts: 15
Joined: Oct 9th, '19, 14:45
Location: 1983 Typhoon Weekender #1903

Re: Unanswered varnishing questions

Post by LilYachty »

This technique is widely used and well accepted. Andy Miller on Boatworks Today has a video describing this method.

If done properly, there should be no reason to "strip" the epoxy from the wood. If the varnish surface starts looking bad, you can sand and renew it without removing any epoxy. If the epoxy gets damaged somehow, you can sand off the varnish and add a new coat of epoxy. You should never need to expose the bare wood again. Prerequisites for a good job include careful preparation that removes any oils and old finishes. Some previous owners may have used stuff like silicone deck stain or other stupid coatings that render the wood unable to take epoxy, even after sanding and washing with strong solvents (don't ask me how I know). The other thing is to use a non-blushing, low viscosity resin like Mas LV. The resin saturates the wood surface and creates a thin layer of wood-epoxy "composite" that resists damage better than the wood under varnish alone. It also provides a perfect substrate for the varnish. Finally, you must use an excellent varnish. I use Petitt 2015 because of it's UV inhibition.

The pictures below are of my 10 year old wooden Annapolis Wherry, a 18' stitch & glue rowing boat. The hull is planked with Okume plywood, the gunwales and deck are mahogany. Although the boat is stored in the garage, it gets extensive use in all kinds of weather. The entire boat is was coated with Mas LV before painting. The decks and gunwales are finished with the epoxy-varnish system. They were varnished with Petitt 1015. I have not done anything more than wiping it off after rowing, and very occasionally washing the boat. The damage visible to the port gunwale was where a mouse decided to sharpen its teeth one winter. Otherwise, it is holding up rather well I'd say.

I just made new trim for my Typhoon out of Osage Orange and when I get it finished I'll post some photos.

20190804_171940.jpg
20190804_171940.jpg (544.92 KiB) Viewed 176 times
20190804_171953.jpg
20190804_171953.jpg (316.69 KiB) Viewed 176 times
John Stone
Posts: 3601
Joined: Oct 6th, '08, 07:30
Location: S/V Far Reach: CD 36 #61 www.farreachvoayges.net www.farreachvoyages.com

Re: Unanswered varnishing questions

Post by John Stone »

LilYachty wrote:This technique is widely used and well accepted. Andy Miller on Boatworks Today has a video describing this method.

If done properly, there should be no reason to "strip" the epoxy from the wood. If the varnish surface starts looking bad, you can sand and renew it without removing any epoxy. If the epoxy gets damaged somehow, you can sand off the varnish and add a new coat of epoxy. You should never need to expose the bare wood again. Prerequisites for a good job include careful preparation that removes any oils and old finishes. Some previous owners may have used stuff like silicone deck stain or other stupid coatings that render the wood unable to take epoxy, even after sanding and washing with strong solvents (don't ask me how I know). The other thing is to use a non-blushing, low viscosity resin like Mas LV. The resin saturates the wood surface and creates a thin layer of wood-epoxy "composite" that resists damage better than the wood under varnish alone. It also provides a perfect substrate for the varnish. Finally, you must use an excellent varnish. I use Petitt 2015 because of it's UV inhibition.

The pictures below are of my 10 year old wooden Annapolis Wherry, a 18' stitch & glue rowing boat. The hull is planked with Okume plywood, the gunwales and deck are mahogany. Although the boat is stored in the garage, it gets extensive use in all kinds of weather. The entire boat is was coated with Mas LV before painting. The decks and gunwales are finished with the epoxy-varnish system. They were varnished with Petitt 1015. I have not done anything more than wiping it off after rowing, and very occasionally washing the boat. The damage visible to the port gunwale was where a mouse decided to sharpen its teeth one winter. Otherwise, it is holding up rather well I'd say.

I just made new trim for my Typhoon out of Osage Orange and when I get it finished I'll post some photos.

20190804_171940.jpg
20190804_171953.jpg
LylYachty,
I had never heard of Andy Miller. I opened the link. Looks like he has a fine business. I am sure lot's of folks have benefited from his website and DIY You tube videos. Looks like he found his calling. Everyone should be so lucky. It's amazing what you can find on youtube....

But none of that, IMO, means that using epoxy to seal hardwood is a good idea. So, I simply disagree. I have used a lot of epoxy--probably 15-20 gallons during our boat rebuild. It's a tool, like any other. I think its a little overused because it is so easy to use folks lean on it when there are better, perhaps more traditional products, that work better over the long haul. Nothing makes life easier than using the right tool for the right job. For some things though, epoxy is hard to beat. I have built a few items with okume and mahogany ply and stitch and glue--My sitz tub, propane locker, icebox come to mind. Coated with epoxy and cloth and laid on few coats of paint (or varnish with a UV inhibitor). Totally appropriate. All those items are protected inside my boat. They never see direct sunlight or salt water or freezing temps or blazing heat.

But, that's not what we are talking about. We are talking about exposed hardwood under clear varnish and epoxy to rain, snow, heat, jet fuel, acid rain, saltwater, etc. Sailing is a hard life for a boat. There is tremendous forces applied to the hull and even the best strongest hulls flex. Things get dropped on wood, dragged across it, rub rails get stepped on, they rub on pilings, etc. If you fumble things like I do you will eventually drop something, like a winch handle on the epoxy hardwood and it will get dinged and the seal broken.... And, storing a boat in a garage or shelter changes the dynamic. It's protected. That's a different life than a boat that sits outside everyday. Like a Corvette or a Porche 356 that is garaged instead of sitting out on the street curb every day 24/7. Which one has the better easier life... Everything on a boat is a compromise. Everything will eventually need maintenance, repair, or replacement. As the great rock band Kansas observed, "Nothing last forever but the earth and sky...." I have almost no exposed varnish--only the coamings are varnished and with a bare teak cap rail to extend the life. (3-4 coats of varnish every year which I am happy to do). And the bowsprit which I have stripped once all ready and which I protect best I can with a cover. Everything else is painted or left bare. But those are my choices and need not be anyone elses.

Just because the marine industry presents their products for use in such and such a way does not mean it's a good idea. Think of all the substandard work the so called professionals in the boatyards do every day. Far too many of them never met a shortcut they didn't love. Caveat Emptor.

There is no wrong answer here. As I said before, your money, your boat, your way--I live by that creed myself.... Thankfully, we all get to choose our own way.

If you have not read Rebecca Whittman's book "Brightwork: The Art of Finishing Wood," I highly recommend it. I think you'll enjoy it.

The most important thing is that you are happy with the results of your work...and it sounds like you are. That is a great feeling. I applaud your desire to give new life to a fine boat.
LilYachty
Posts: 15
Joined: Oct 9th, '19, 14:45
Location: 1983 Typhoon Weekender #1903

Re: Unanswered varnishing questions

Post by LilYachty »

I would point out that the epoxy-varnish system involves prepping and coating the back sides of the wood as well. This prevents the migration of moisture from the back to the front, a frequent cause of surface coating failure, as well as providing a perfect surface for bedding compounds to bond. Additionally, this prevents bedding compounds from adhering the wood itself and contaminating it in possibly irreparable ways. Once installed, one need never mess with anything beyond renewing the exposed varnished surface. I have used this technique on my Catalina 22's trim. She sits out in the sun in her slip from April to October in 90 degree heat and is sailed frequently. After 2 summers baking in the sun, the varnish looks like the day I installed the trim. Because of the stupidity of the PO, some pieces could not be epoxied because he used silicone-based products on the teak drop boards and a few other pieces. Even after extensive sanding (more than is desirable, and washing with acetone, lacquer thinner, and even xylene, nothing could remove the deeply penetrated contamination. In my estimation, anybody who uses silicone products on wood, or anything else on a boat for that matter, should be drawn and quartered. there is a special place in hell for them, right next to the people who use Dow 5200 to bed hardware. I ended up having to oil those pieces because I doubted that even varnish would stay on them over time. While I understand your respect for the traditional method of varnishing, sometimes a new technique comes along that may be better, at least in some circumstances. Generally speaking, I think the epoxy-varnish system is best used on new wood, and must never be used without also doing the back sides. So on an older boat, that means completely removing the trim and prepping it properly. Not always an easy or desirable thing. That said, I would put this technique up against the finest all varnish finishes for durability and longevity.
gates_cliff
Posts: 463
Joined: Sep 3rd, '08, 13:23
Location: CD 27, "Katie Girl", Galesville, MD

Re: Unanswered varnishing questions

Post by gates_cliff »

JOHN,

Thanks for the link to Thriftbooks. When I searched I was astounded that the price could be so high, so had looked at various links, but hadn't run across that one.
Just placed an order.
Cliff
“Man cannot discover new oceans unless he has the courage to lose sight of the shore.”

― André Gide
Post Reply