Coats of varnish

[Walter Hobbs]

Greetings,

For those of you that varnish, what difference does it make if you put on 6 coats vs 8 coats or even 10 coats. Rebecca Wittman talks about 6 and suggests 8 or 10. I've got 5 on the pieces in my basement and they look pretty good. I think one more should do it. However if there is a valid reason, maybe I should do a couple more.

I bet it comes down to personal preference. Opinions? Ideas?

( Mental picture for you. Me in my boxers and flip flops early morning varnishing in the basement. )

[Keith]

Hi Walter,

I find that at 4 coats it starts to look good then more coats gives it more depth. I do at least 6 on interior items but you really need 8 or more for anything that is outside for UV protection. The UV will eat it up pretty fast and the lower the latitude you are in the worse it will be. I talked to a guy at a boat show that had the most incredible varnish job every and he had 18-20 coats. You could get lost in the depth of it but it's kinda like the show cars that people never drive.

Keith

[John Stone]

In technical terms the number of costs is driven by the requirement to fully “fill” the grain. That’s is, the surface is dead flat. It usually takes about 8-10 coats to do that depending on the grain of the wood.

I typically have 7 before I decide that’s good. And, within a few years, if you keep up with your varnish schedule you’ll have those extra coats. Our coamings and bowsprit are completely filled and dead flat. The interior has seven coats and could use two more.

Exterior varnish has to be maintained more frequently. We have never revarnished the interior...but I might add two more coats in the next couple years.

In the end, it’s about what your “end state” vision is and if you are willing to do the work to achieve it. But among varnish pros it’s about filling the grain.

I might add that sanding between coats is essential to achieving a level/flat surface.

The good and the bad about varnish is you almost never achieve perfection and if you did you will be covering it again soon. In the other hand, if your final coat is flawed don’t sweat it, you’ll get another chance to add more soon enough.

[jbenagh]

I agree with John on the degree of perfection. That said, I generally do five coats (the first coat is sealer so may not count), sand flat without cutting through, then do four more. Follow up with two annually plus "scratch and patch". This is Epifaenes. I've gotten away with up to three years between maintenance coats with Cetol but it never looks as good as Epifanes and you can really notice if you skip even one year. And with Cetol the scratch and patch takes a lot more coats or you just skip the gloss.

To each his own. It really depends on what degree of effort you like versus the look you want.

Jeff

[Walter Hobbs]

Thanks gentlemen for your advice.

As with anything else, I'm on the learning curve. Starting several years ago on my Sea Sprite. Now using Epifanes after trying others and prepping more carefully and trying harder to eliminate dust.

I think I have the best results this year so far. Also now understand the importance of a varnish "program"/

Thanks again,

[John Stone]

Once you begin to slow the learning curve and gain some experience it’s not difficult to maintain a schedule and I have found varnishing to be very rewarding.

I think the key is having just enough wood to varnish that you can manage it with out it feeling like a hassle.

Epifanes is all I use.

[Steve Laume]

I like the idea of "having just enough wood to varnish". I suppose that amount varies for all of us. For me that is the hatch boards, cockpit table and my pedestal organizer that also holds the chart plotter. These can all be easily taken off of the boat and done at home. I am definitely in the 20 coat range with these and they are beautiful. The hatch boards go into a compartmented fleece bag whenever they are removed.

The rest of the teak is covered with Cetol with the exception of the toe and rub rails which get oiled from time to time.

I have always heard that 7 coats was the minimum for varnish. That seems about right and is a lucky number.

No one else commented on your varnishing attire. It may well be because they are trying to erase the image from their minds.

I know myself well enough to realize that I will never keep up with varnishing all of my teak, Steve.

[John #126]

Keep in mind that the number of coats depends on the product. No sanding between coats of Cetol, so the build is pretty good, especially if you finish with the gloss. But it's soft so it wears easily.

If you use Epifanes, sanding removes about a half a coat each time, so 10 coats is really closer to 5 or 6. I switched to Epifanes a couple years ago and am very happy with the result. It's more durable than Cetol or oil, in my experience. It's a few days work each year for the maintenance coats. And I really like the rubbed finish varnish for the interior.

I am always guided by the "5 foot rule". If it looks good from 5' away, it's good enough for me.

John

[Brimag]

Hello, I brush 10 coats of Epiphanes on new wood or stripped wood, after 2 coats of sealer. After that 2-3 maintenance coats annually/exterior wood.Interior wood usually 5 coats after 2 sealer. Also satin fills grain faster on interiors. Everyone has their own way

[Seaweed2]

What exactly do you use for "sealer"? My old wood has had varnish and something else on it but nothing of any substance done to it for 5 or more years. I am rebedding the rails, so they are coming off. Lots of grain open on the wood. So far I have sanded one rail but it took a fair bit of time. No worries because it should look good when finished. Sounds like Epifanes for varnish. Do you just thin it for the first coat?

[John Stone]

What exactly do you use for "sealer"? My old wood has had varnish and something else on it but nothing of any substance done to it for 5 or more years. I am rebedding the rails, so they are coming off. Lots of grain open on the wood. So far I have sanded one rail but it took a fair bit of time. No worries because it should look good when finished. Sounds like Epifanes for varnish. Do you just thin it for the first coat?

I would not recommend sanding old varnish off. Use a heat gun and a pull scrapper. Read Rebecca Whitman’s classic The Art of Brightwork for everything you need to know in varnish “work.” Sand only to remove the hair and flatten the grain after using the heat gun.

I cut the first coat of Epifanes gloss varnish 1:1 with high quality mineral spirits. Sand after every coat. The details are thoroughly covered in Whitman’s book.

[Seaweed2]

So no sealer? I ordered the book but it will be a week before it arrives. I will remain anxious to do my woodwork-until the book comes!!

[John Stone]

So no sealer? I ordered the book but it will be a week before it arrives. I will remain anxious to do my woodwork-until the book comes!!

Seaweed, the first coat is the sealer. Each varnish has its peculiar characteristics. I use Epifanes. I cut the first coat 1:1. That is 1/2 varnish to 1/2 mineral spirts. You can recoat after the first coat in 8 hours. All the others require 24 hours, or more if it’s cool out. The second coat cut about 30 percent. There after you only cut for flow. Fresh varnish I don’t cut at all unless it’s warm. But older varnish or varnish tat is open for a while I will add mineral spirts to keep it flowing. Hard to describe but you will understand right away when it happens.

Taping Protocols are important. Sand between every coat if you want a high quality finish. Vacuum. Tack cloth. Use a dedicated paint brush to dust the sanding residue out of the corners. Any deviations, and you will get something less. Many people are fine with something less. You have to figure out what you want and how much you are willing to work to get it. Example, I enjoy varnishing. I always try for the best coat I can get. Sometimes I get it. Sometimes I don’t. But I don’t have a lot of varnish on the exterior. The bowsprit, coamings, tiller. The dorades I leave bare. The bulwarks I paint. For me, I’d never varnish the toe-rail or rub-rail. You can’t protect them because of the purpose they serve. Others feel differently. Figure out what you like.

There are also many kinds of modern finishes that have different protocols then what I described. All get applied different. Each are maintained a bit different. But when it comes to results all are compared to tung oil based varnish like Epifanes and Schooner Gold varnish. There is a reason for that. Whitman’s book has more details on bright work than you will need in a lifetime.

I’m not a snob about varnish. As long as the owner gets what he or she wants then that’s the right answer for that person. I don’t varnish for others enjoyment. I varnish for my own. But when it comes to high quality varnish that looks good a 20 feet or 2 feet there is no easy way out.

Last comment. It’s not that much work all things considered. By the time you get the varnish and everything together, get supporting stuff set up, wash and clean the wood, tape, sand, etc we are talking a couple of coats. And if you keep up with it you are only going to add two coats for maintenance X times a year depending on where you live.

Like anything worth doing, it’s a learning process. You get better and more knowledgeable over time.

[Seaweed2]

Very good. I thought that the sealer might be a different product altogether. I had read somewhere in the infinite amount of verbage on varnishing that some used a diluted epoxy resin for the first coat. If this was a bad idea, I can see where it would yield serious troubles for me in the long run. I will choose to dilute the first two coats of varnish like you say, as was my practice years ago. I removed the rails because the deck underneath needed sealing. I would find it much easier to varnish them before replacing them back on the boat but when I place the new bungs in the screw holes I will need to trim and sand the bung top and varnish them. It seems to me that there will be a noticeable difference where the bungs were varnished after the rest of the wood. Shall I just varnish the sides and do the top where the strews go through once I remount and rebung? This too seems perilous. Also..... Do you fill the original deck screw holes with epoxy before screwing the rail back on? The screws were snug and had no issues when I removed them. There was also a soft yellowish caulk over the head of each screw underneath each bung, I assume to improve the water seal. Lifecaulk? Thanks for your consideration.

[John Stone]

Very good. I thought that the sealer might be a different product altogether. I had read somewhere in the infinite amount of verbage on varnishing that some used a diluted epoxy resin for the first coat. If this was a bad idea, I can see where it would yield serious troubles for me in the long run. I will choose to dilute the first two coats of varnish like you say, as was my practice years ago. I removed the rails because the deck underneath needed sealing. I would find it much easier to varnish them before replacing them back on the boat but when I place the new bungs in the screw holes I will need to trim and sand the bung top and varnish them. It seems to me that there will be a noticeable difference where the bungs were varnished after the rest of the wood. Shall I just varnish the sides and do the top where the strews go through once I remount and rebung? This too seems perilous. Also..... Do you fill the original deck screw holes with epoxy before screwing the rail back on? The screws were snug and had no issues when I removed them. There was also a soft yellowish caulk over the head of each screw underneath each bung, I assume to improve the water seal. Lifecaulk? Thanks for your consideration.

No epoxy. Once you put epoxy on wood the whole game changes. At some point you will probably strip the varnish back to bare wood and if it has epoxy on it you will dramatically complicate what you are doing. Also, go to the epifanes website or the website of whoever is making the varnish you choose to use and read about their applications recommendations. None of this is rocket science but you do have to gain some basic insights into the art of brightwork to develop some skill.

This is just a recommendation as others feel different. I would avoid varnishing grab rails. People step on them and we lay boat hooks, and dinghy oars, and such along side of them. We tie things to them. They can take a beating. When varnish has it's integrity broken water penetrates very quickly. Once that happens you are fighting a losing battle. Same as with toe rails. I think it is very seamanlike and quite lovely to have both varnish and bare teak along side one another. The insides of my companionway are varnished but the drop boards are bare teak. The coamings are varnished mahogany but the cap rail on top of the coaming is bare teak. Keep it simple and manageable. But, if you want varnished toerails then that's fine too. It's just more work to maintain. I have never seen this successfully pulled off with varnish where it is not stripped bare and restarted every couple years. Maybe not so bad in New England if you only have your boat in the water 4-6 months a year, the sun is not that hot, and the rest of the time under cover. But where I live or in the tropics the sun is relentless. Also, varnishing grab rails is time consuming. Takes a long time to tape. Don't even think about varnishing without a good tape job. And, it's hard to maneuver the varnish brush around and under all the cut outs and turns and keep a consistent flow going. You'll battle runs, holidays and sags. Your choice. Choose wisely.

Forum members (including myself) have written exhaustively about how to protect the core of your deck when you drill through. There is a lot of info with photos in the forum database. The short version is you over-drill the hole, remove the core, fill with epoxy, let it cure, then drill the appropriate sized hole for the fastener. That way the core of the deck is separated from the fastener. Chamfer the hole before you apply bedding compound. I have written about the techniques extensively on my website. Also, west systems Epoxy has a great reference library on doing all these projects so take a look there.

You are right about installing bungs after you varnish. I had to do that for the coamings and it's a PITA. Sometimes it is the best option. But, if you think you will want to take the grab rails off in the near future to revarnish you are making the job unnecessarily difficult by bunging the fasteners. A better option, IMO, is to install the bungs then drill through them to install bronze oval head slotted fasteners carefully and gently countersinking the 82 degree bevel of the underside of the fastener. Sounds dramatic it just means countersink no more than necessary to get the edge of the fastener level with the top surface of the wood. Then varnish over the fastener. If there are nuts under the bolts inside the boat then you can use butyl or use a more modern bedding compound. Nothing beats butyl if the rails will be left for years...which is what I would recommend if you leave them bare. But polysulfide or polyurethane bedding is very good otherwise. I prefer brown teak colored polysulfide made by Boat Life if you are bedding teak or mahogany or any kind of bright finished wood. It's less noticeable. If the holes in the deck are properly sealed there is no need to apply epoxy. Just make sure the top of the hole is chamfered so bedding is forced into the hole when you tighten down on the fasteners.

My best advice is to look closely at boats you admire. Go on-line and look at the websites of classic wood boats and zoom in and see what you like. Many/most classic boats have paid crews who keep brightwork up so keep that in mind. The rest of us mortals have to do it ourselves. I have no desire to keep up with a professional varnish crew hired by the Vanderbilts. Bare teak is easy to keep clean if you do it. No brushes or abrasives. Just a wash cloth and warm water. Add a little Dawn dishwashing detergent every now and again. Make sure you are reading well vetted and reliable info. Don't listen to all the yahoos on the dock that want to regale you with their short cuts which will only produce sub quality results. There are no short cuts. Focus on good solid technical advice. Go to the experts and read what they have to say. Make a plan. Be prepared to make a few mistakes. Adjust your technique and drive on. You may find, like many people, it's too much work for what you get. You might find you only want to varnish a small amount of external wood but do it exceptional well (that's my approach) or you might want to do a combo of techniques, or use some easy to apply stuff that looks good at 20-30 feet away and that becomes your happy spot.

Whitman's book is the closest thing I have seen to the burning bush for brightwork and it is certainly the best place IMO to start learning. Then, if you want to try something else you have knowledge of your departure point.

Happy sailing...I mean sanding.