Hole in the keel

[Sea Hunt Video]

Today I launched S/V Bali Ha'i back into the warm, nutrient rich waters of Biscayne Bay. All went well except for a surprising discovery on the bottom of the keel.

Last week the bottom was painted with two coats of Sea Hawk Tropikote (red, then blue). Because she was up on jack stands and blocked in two places at the bottom of the keel there were two small areas on the very bottom of the keel that could not get painted. As I had done in the past, once she was lifted up onto straps and the wood blocks were removed, I started to sand off a little of the old paint and prep to apply a new coat.

To my surprise I noticed two (2) small holes in the very bottom of the keel just before the keel curves upward towards the hull. They had been concealed/hidden by the wood blocks. The first hole is about 1/2" in diameter with jagged edges (i.e. not drilled). It is approximately 1/2" in depth. The second hole is just in back of this first hole. The second hole is smaller (1/4" diam) but about the same 1/2" in depth. It is also somewhat jagged. Both "holes" appear to be old but I am not a good judge of this. While looking at them I wondered if somehow they had been "plugged" with some type of hull material and they plugs had just accidentally "popped out" with the expansion/contraction of the hull from this Summer's oppressively heat and humidity.

With marina staff standing around waiting for a "go/no go" I made a "command decision" to launch rather than reset the jack stands and blocks and work on trying to fill/fix the holes.

I have owned S/V Bali Ha'i since July 2011 when I had a complete survey done. She has been out of the water 3 times for bottom painting. I have NEVER noticed these holes before although I admit that I had someone paint the bottom in the past who I trusted. However, I am confident that if he had noticed these holes he certainly would have repaired them. He had repaired and faired a few minor "nicks" on other spots on the hull.

I also clean the bottom myself and try to do so once a month. I have never observed these holes before although, admittedly, the mooring field is pretty murky with very limited viz. However, I work close in to the hull and am meticulous about scraping and brushing the hull. I would like to think I would have noticed these holes although I readily admit it is possible I did not notice them.

As I now sit at my computer with a cold Guinness I am beginning to wonder if, as is my history, I made a mistake in launching today. I am wondering what damage may be caused by water intrusion at these two (2) holes. Part of my concern is that I am not sure what material is at the very bottom of the keel. Will these holes degrade the integrity of the encapsulated keel , etc. As I said they appear to be about 1/2" in depth max.

It was my plan to haul S/V Bali Ha'i again in January 2015 for some additional maintenance work, etc. I am wondering if it is safe to leave these two (2) holes the way they are until January 2015 or if I should haul out again in 1-2 days, let the keel dry (and apply a heat gun to aid in drying) and then fill these two (2) holes NOW before any damage is done, if any can be done.

Any and all thoughts, suggestions, recommendations, observations, etc. will be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

[Russell]

Would have to be there to make a suggestion, but so long as the holes did not penetrate into the ballast I would not be overly worried. In your shoes I would likely have filled them and launched the next day, or worst cast squirted some fast cure 5200 into them at the very least (which will cure underwater) and properly filled them next haul.

If they do penetrate into ballast, it could cause a big issue in the long run with moisture getting into the ballast, and that location, on the forward end of the keel (if I understand you correctly) is where the ballast is. But at least the ballast in a CD is lead, not iron. But I know you are prone to get worried and most likely you dont need to be, I imagine the yard guys would have pointed out if it was serious cause for concern.

If it is going to cause you sleepless nights, get some underwater curing epoxy (sold in sticks at west marine, its the consistancy of clay), mix it, dive the hull and jam it up in there really well and repair it proper next year. That would be my solution in your currently launched situation as opposed to rehauling.

[Russell]

As for why they are there, who the heck knows and really wondering about that bit does not solve anything.

[Sea Hunt Video]

Russell:

So I do not make any more mistakes, is this the product you recommend

http://www.westmarine.com/buy/west-mari ... k--3761483

[Russell]

Russell:

So I do not make any more mistakes, is this the product you recommend

http://www.westmarine.com/buy/west-mari ... k--3761483

Yep, thats the stuff. If its going to keep you up at night, make use of that and worst cast you are just trapping a teaspoon of water in the keel, rather then the whole ocean and any potential issue is minimized to the point of not worrying about.

[Robert Delaney]

Let me pass on an experience I have had after having my boat blocked up. The two blocks used were about 10" square, maybe 12". There is a gravel base at the boat yard where the blocks are used. There were numerous rocks embedded in the wooden blocks from the weight of various boats which had rested on the blocks. Most of the rocks (all small but some easily 1/2" or more in size) which were embedded in the blocks were pushed down flush with the wood but some were protruding above the blocks. After the boat was lifted off the blocks I noticed at least one indentation in the gel coat from what I clearly believed to be from a rock embedded in one of the blocks. Another, was not an indentation, but a chip out of the gel coat in the manner in which you described.

I note that you starting to sand the area when you noticed the holes. If they were covered with old bottom paint and did not have any indication of water weeping I would suspect that they are not that serious and only slight surface damage. From the area you describe it would be a location that would be an area first to contact the bottom in a shallow location, or as you indicate, above a customary blocking area.

I would not worry in the least about the areas but would check them when you next pull the boat.

[Jim Walsh]

Robert, I agree with Russell on this. I've had a stick of a different brand name aboard for several years which was left aboard by the PO. Only used a little piece of it once but it is great stuff. Really does cure underwater, which I doubted at first. Since you're an underwater enthusiast anyway you might as well fill those two holes at your earliest opportunity and effect a neat repair when you haul out in the future. Your "murky" mooring field sounds like bull shark heaven. You'd never catch me swimming there

[Sea Hunt Video]

Russell:

Thanks very much for the much needed help.

Robert D.:

It definitely was not pebbles in the wood blocks. While I do not want to exaggerate the size of the holes, they were definitely not pebble indentations. As for not worrying, when it comes to S/V Bali Ha'i I worry a lot. Not sure why. I used to do some hairy stuff and slept every night like a baby. Now, I worry every night about my baby. Oh well.

Jim W.:

Thanks for the second on the epoxy stick recommendation. As for bull sharks, there really are not any in the mooring field. I saw a nurse shark once but they are harmless. What I am always on alert for are salt water alligators. They are mean, vicious and not fearful of humans. Several years ago the dock staff took a photo of a HUGE (I mean HUGE ) alligator sunning itself on one of the clubs docks. It apparently managed to climb up during an unusually strong high tide period. I offered to get my Remington 700 and make ladies handbags out of him but was reminded they are a protected species. Protected my a$#. They are predatory and vicious.

Anyways, a final thought. As always, the members of this board are amazing in their quick, simple, accurate responses to almost any issue involving sailboats.

[joemerchant]

Please correct me if I am wrong. First, I can't imagine missing a damage section that large, and my first thought would be damage from hauling/blocking. Anytime mat is exposed underwater, it is cause for concern. The yard guys are not going to make a call one way or the other on a DIY job, or otherwise as they don't want to be held responsible or even proximately responsible and leaving the "go, no go" entirely up to the customer.

I have seen a lot of boats with penetration into the mat that has eventually delaminated large sections and cast iron, completely ruining the boat, I think there is a good example of a Taiwan boat on Ebay that shows just that. Yes, Cape Dory used lead, but if you have mat exposed, especially in a "jagged" condition as described, water will penetrate and eventually delaminate the bond between the surrounding gel-coat and the glass and/or glass layers and bond to the lead (I am not sure the size of the lead they used as solid or small encapsulated ingots). The Cape Dory layup schedule was usually more conducive to gel cracking than delaminating in later years, but mid years, they had the same product issues others had with resins and fire retardants. Boats stored out of the water for the winter is definite cause for concern as Vegas odds the freezing moisture will delaminate.

A common area where I am basing my opinion would be rudders as a good illustration of what happens when water penetrates a damaged area. Again, I could be way off base here, but I would rather be on the side of caution than just ignoring it. So, I would probably consider a quick haul and professional opinion.

If it were me and time and money were a consideration, I would have at least taken another day in the yard, dried it out with a heat gun, then West and 404 filled the holes. I am not crazy about the idea of using stick epoxy while in the water as you are sealing that moisture in, which may eventually still break the bonds. These are great to repair damage long enough to get the boat out of the water for a permanent repair. I could be wrong, but it sounds to me like a pay now or pay a lot more later situation.

The fact that it was not weeping makes me think the damage is newer than you think.

From an insurance standpoint - If you have coverage, the repair can be claimed NOW (as it sounds like collision damage), but putting the boat back in the water knowing the damage is there will negate future claims as a policy violation.

[Sea Hunt Video]

Hello Joe:

After Russell and Jim W. reassured me that "all would be OK" for the short term with some epoxy caulk your post has me confused and scared.

First, I think I may not have described the holes, their location, condition, etc., I apologize. I wish I knew how to post photos.

On my CD 25D the bottom of the keel is a flat surface (perhaps 2" wide). These two holes are on this flat surface with the holes going directly "upward" into the keel. Although I say "going directly upward", the distance upward (or penetration) is very short - only 1/2".

Your post suggests a large damage section caused by a collision. I know very little about this stuff but, to me, it is a very small area (the holes are 1/2" and 1/4" in diam -approximately). I cannot imagine how these could be caused by a collision. There is about 1" - 2" of keel in front of the most forward hole. This area of the keel appears normal and solid. The area aft of smaller hole #2 also appears normal and solid. I do not think this was the result of a collision or "dropping" the hull, etc. Both sides of the keel in the area of the two holes also appear normal and solid. If I did not know better I would say someone drilled two holes up into the bottom of the keel to a depth of 1/2". This of course makes no sense.

Today I purchased the epoxy caulk recommended by Russell. I will apply it later this week and then will be vigilant in watching for any water coming into the bilge area. I will also dive more frequently to check on the condition of the epoxy caulk.

My plan as of this post is to haul out again in Jan/Feb for about a week to do some work on the sea cocks. At that time, if all is well between now and then, I will clean out the two holes, make sure they are dry (a heat gun if needed) and fill them in properly with a marine filler such as:

http://www.westmarine.com/buy/3m--marin ... 20_005_002

I used this product when installing a new marine head sea cock. It worked very well.

Thanks again to everyone for their thoughts, recommendations, etc. They are much appreciated by this rookie/tadpole.

[joemerchant]

1/2" hole in fiberglass is considered a big hole. Collision damage - my definition. Damage caused by force of contact. Either banging the keel on the rocks, or hitting something. Most collision damage is either to the forward waterline or the bottom or leading edge of the keel. It is not uncommon for the boat to bounce off a rocky bottom and cause damage. In all cases, it is claimable on insurance and once of the easiest to get paid. If you follow the rules of the policy which is to do everything you can once you notice the damage to limit any further damage. If you putty it and haul it next year and find you have water delamination, they can and probably will refuse to pay the claim.

So, if you have insurance, it is probably best to initiate a claim now and they will scedule the haul and have a surveyor check it out.

[Sea Hunt Video]

Joe:

I have been the caretaker of S/V Bali Ha'i since July 2011. I am very sure I have NEVER hit anything (soft or hard) while sailing her. I guess it is possible that the PO may have hit something but that would have been more than 4 years ago (the 2010 NE sailing season). I do not know much about insurance claims but I do not think I can make a claim for damage to a sailboat that happened (if at all) at least one year before I purchased her.

In an abundance of caution I will talk with BoatUS marine insurance division to see what they say.