Folks,
I've been doing quite a lot of experimenting to try and find the right paint for the topsides and deck of my CD36.
Yesterday I decided to do some more experimenting with Interlux Perfection to see if I was going to be able to use it on the boat. I had scrubbed the topsides with TSP already. I selected a 2' by 2' area just above the waterline for the experiment. I wiped it down several times with 202 Fiberglass Solvent Wash. Then I sanded the area to 320. Then I wiped it down with the brushing thinner for Perfection. Then I mixed up a small batch of Perfection and thinned it 10% with the brushing thinner. I used the correct yellow closed-cell foam roller and an expensive brush from Jamestown Distributors. I cleaned all this stuff before using it with the paint. Still, as soon as I started rolling the Perfection onto the hull I started getting fish-eyes, and the lightest brush strokes I could make made ugly lines in the paint. I know enough to know this is a no-go, so I wiped off the paint, recleaned the surface and tried again. Again fish-eyes. This happened several times. Then I decided to try cleaning the surface with acetone, and again with the strongest lacquer thinner we had. Then I re-wiped with the standard 202 and then the brushing thinner. I waited for the surface to get totally dry, 70 degrees, pleasant breeze, low humidity..... then I tried the paint again. Again fish-eyes. This was exasperating, and reminiscent of 8 years ago when Madison and I painted a restored A-Model Ford using a sprayed two-part urethane base-clear system. We kept getting fish-eyes until we asked a professional painter, who suggested a silicone additive for the paint. Even so, the paint was orange-peely until we buffed it...., a LOT. Anyway, back to yesterday and the Perfection experiment: After no success with the Perfection, and because I happened to have an almost full quart of Epifanes Monourethane (VERY similar to Brightside) I decided to try the Epifanes in the same location. I had already wiped off the mess and recleaned the area. WOW! What a difference! The Epifanes went on smooth and nice, no fish-eyes. The brush strokes were mostly gone in a few minutes, and within several hours they had become almost invisible. And one coat covered!
Now, I would like to use Perfection. But if it's going to be an absolute PAIN, I can't see bothering with it. Can anyone suggest a reason for the fisheyes? Will fish-eye eliminator (actually a silicone paint additive) help with this without adversely affecting the Perfection? I'm guessing that using the epoxy primer would probably help, but I've been told many times that epoxy primer shouldn't be necessary on sound gelcoat.
Help?
topsides paint, single or two part? roll-and-tip? spray?
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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Troy Scott
- Posts: 1470
- Joined: Jan 21st, '06, 01:23
- Location: Cape Dory 36 IMAGINE Laurel, Mississippi
perfection? well,.... maybe not
Regards,
Troy Scott
Troy Scott
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Kevin Kaldenbach
- Posts: 346
- Joined: Aug 24th, '08, 16:26
- Location: Cape Dory 31 “Kerry Ann“. Currently in Corpus Christi TX and Typhoon Weekender “Wimpyâ€
Troy,
I recently painted my Typhoon's top side and deck with Interlux Perfection. Never a fish eye. After sanding I wiped it down with 2333N.
You said you cleaned everything before hand. With what? Also with my Typhoon and my CD31 that I painted last june I started with the expensive brush but opted for cheep foam brushes that are basically a foam pad on a stick. Why? I found the need to clean the brush once the paint on it started to thicken, and ended up getting thinner from the brush on my paint job.
Buy about 20 foam brushes and as soon as a brush starts to sag pitch it in the trash.
Let me also say I used Interlux non skid additive where needed by mixing it into the paint and had good luck
I recently painted my Typhoon's top side and deck with Interlux Perfection. Never a fish eye. After sanding I wiped it down with 2333N.
You said you cleaned everything before hand. With what? Also with my Typhoon and my CD31 that I painted last june I started with the expensive brush but opted for cheep foam brushes that are basically a foam pad on a stick. Why? I found the need to clean the brush once the paint on it started to thicken, and ended up getting thinner from the brush on my paint job.
Buy about 20 foam brushes and as soon as a brush starts to sag pitch it in the trash.
Let me also say I used Interlux non skid additive where needed by mixing it into the paint and had good luck
Kevin
CD 31 "Kerry Ann"
kaldenbach.us
CD 31 "Kerry Ann"
kaldenbach.us
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Troy Scott
- Posts: 1470
- Joined: Jan 21st, '06, 01:23
- Location: Cape Dory 36 IMAGINE Laurel, Mississippi
TSP followed by 202
Hi Kevin and ALL,
I scrubbed the hull using TSP and water, then I followed with Interlux 202 Fiberglass Cleaner, then I sanded to 320, then I wiped it down with Interlux Brushing thinner 2333N. After the fisheyes appeared I removed the paint using 2333N on a clean shop rag from Lowes. I cleaned the surface several times with those chemicals, and reapplied the paint several times, always with the same results. Then I tried acetone, and later strong lacquer thinner. The fisheyes would reappear every time. I will consider the factors common to all applications. Likely therein lies the culprit. Whatever the contaminant is, it doesn't affect single part paint at all. I know it isn't the brush, because the fisheyes appeared before the tipping. I doubt it's the roller, as it was in the original package until I opened it. I'm the second owner, and now I'm guessing maybe the previous owner used some silicone-based polish which is now deeply embedded in the pores of the gelcoat. I did not prime the gelcoat, as it seems sound, and many folks have told me it's not normally necessary.
I've just watched the video again. I noticed they used a cleaner that looks like a brown mud. I did not perform that step. Perhaps I should.
It's very disheartening to work so hard on a recommended course of action only to have it turn to crap. I would appreciate any suggestions.
I scrubbed the hull using TSP and water, then I followed with Interlux 202 Fiberglass Cleaner, then I sanded to 320, then I wiped it down with Interlux Brushing thinner 2333N. After the fisheyes appeared I removed the paint using 2333N on a clean shop rag from Lowes. I cleaned the surface several times with those chemicals, and reapplied the paint several times, always with the same results. Then I tried acetone, and later strong lacquer thinner. The fisheyes would reappear every time. I will consider the factors common to all applications. Likely therein lies the culprit. Whatever the contaminant is, it doesn't affect single part paint at all. I know it isn't the brush, because the fisheyes appeared before the tipping. I doubt it's the roller, as it was in the original package until I opened it. I'm the second owner, and now I'm guessing maybe the previous owner used some silicone-based polish which is now deeply embedded in the pores of the gelcoat. I did not prime the gelcoat, as it seems sound, and many folks have told me it's not normally necessary.
I've just watched the video again. I noticed they used a cleaner that looks like a brown mud. I did not perform that step. Perhaps I should.
It's very disheartening to work so hard on a recommended course of action only to have it turn to crap. I would appreciate any suggestions.
Regards,
Troy Scott
Troy Scott
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Kevin Kaldenbach
- Posts: 346
- Joined: Aug 24th, '08, 16:26
- Location: Cape Dory 31 “Kerry Ann“. Currently in Corpus Christi TX and Typhoon Weekender “Wimpyâ€
Sounds like you're on the right track - use a primer, now?
No experience here, but your logic seems good, i.e. it might be something in the gelcoat that survived all your prep. Silicone is notorious for being a bear to remove.Troy Scott wrote:... now I'm guessing maybe the previous owner used some silicone-based polish which is now deeply embedded in the pores of the gelcoat...
Sounds like a primer would be a good idea?
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Markst95
- Posts: 628
- Joined: Aug 5th, '08, 10:04
- Location: 1972 Typhoon Weekender "SWIFT" Hull #289 Narragansett Bay, RI
I painted my typhoon last year during the restoration with Petit Easypoxy. I was more interested in easy touchup and easier coverage than longevity. Most of the paint has held up well even though I didn't get a chance to cover the boat this winter. The only area that has some small flaking was the cockpit floor semi gloss white areas and I'm pretty sure it was my preparation- I was rushing somewhat to finish before my launch date. On the plus side the sandstone color is the nicest shade of beige I've seen(IMO) and has held up well.
Troy........if you're getting fish eyes- it's not clean enough.Have you used compressed air to blow off the surface ? the oil in the air will be a source of contamination. Did you sand your gel coat and use a pre and post solvent wash ? Wipe down rags must be lint free and surfaces changed every wipe.......use a lot of clean rags. Be careful the solvent doesn't get contaminated, I know it's anal , but it's essential. The proper primer is a consideration.
I've had this type of trouble with Awlgrip and don't use it anymore. Never had an issue with Perfection, it's very user friendly and yields great results.
When brushing use the right reducer and it helps to have someone assisting. Use 2 or 3 brushes and keep them clean and free from build up changing frequently. I use one of those brush spinners to get all the solvent out of the brush between cleaning exchanges.
Temp. and humidity are also concerns. Good luck
________
Medical Marijuana Patients
I've had this type of trouble with Awlgrip and don't use it anymore. Never had an issue with Perfection, it's very user friendly and yields great results.
When brushing use the right reducer and it helps to have someone assisting. Use 2 or 3 brushes and keep them clean and free from build up changing frequently. I use one of those brush spinners to get all the solvent out of the brush between cleaning exchanges.
Temp. and humidity are also concerns. Good luck
________
Medical Marijuana Patients
Last edited by Ron M. on Feb 11th, '11, 06:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Maine Sail
- Posts: 839
- Joined: Feb 8th, '06, 18:30
- Location: Canadian Sailcraft 36T
Troy,
Now you're beginning to understand why;
1- Paint jobs are expensive
2- Many of us preach about silicone contamination of gelcoat
Don't be fooled by the Epiphanes not getting fish eyes. The film thickness is likely a different viscosity and tension and can hold the skin long enough to prevent a fish eye. This does not mean the paint is well adhered and in the future those fish eyes will inevitably return.
Sadly there are very few, like no, chemicals that effectively remove silicone contamination from gelcoat that do not also damage it. Body shops use silicone removing compounds but on metal not fiberglass.
About the only thing you can do is sand it off and test a spot and use multiple clean rags. One swipe is all that should ever be made before the rag is turned to a clean area so you don't re-deposit. Primers are also more tolerant than finish coats to improper prep and have a better direct bond to the substrate.
Set up a piece of glass and test your Perfection on it before applying it to your hull. The right mix is not always easy to get and glass works great to dial the paint it and see how the brush marks self level. Ideally I find I want it just wet enough so it does not drip...
Oh and if I have not said it enough... SILICONE = BAD
Now you're beginning to understand why;
1- Paint jobs are expensive
2- Many of us preach about silicone contamination of gelcoat
Don't be fooled by the Epiphanes not getting fish eyes. The film thickness is likely a different viscosity and tension and can hold the skin long enough to prevent a fish eye. This does not mean the paint is well adhered and in the future those fish eyes will inevitably return.
Sadly there are very few, like no, chemicals that effectively remove silicone contamination from gelcoat that do not also damage it. Body shops use silicone removing compounds but on metal not fiberglass.
About the only thing you can do is sand it off and test a spot and use multiple clean rags. One swipe is all that should ever be made before the rag is turned to a clean area so you don't re-deposit. Primers are also more tolerant than finish coats to improper prep and have a better direct bond to the substrate.
Set up a piece of glass and test your Perfection on it before applying it to your hull. The right mix is not always easy to get and glass works great to dial the paint it and see how the brush marks self level. Ideally I find I want it just wet enough so it does not drip...
Oh and if I have not said it enough... SILICONE = BAD
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Troy Scott
- Posts: 1470
- Joined: Jan 21st, '06, 01:23
- Location: Cape Dory 36 IMAGINE Laurel, Mississippi
silicone is bad
I built a composite airplane in my hangar before the boat project. For at least 20 years the rule has been "no silicon products near the airplane or the boat" because of laminating issues and paint problems. If there is silicone (and there probably is) it was applied to the hull before I owned the boat. As I explained earlier, my efforts to properly clean and prepare the gelcoat for Perfection were nothing short of heroic. However, heroic is apparently not enough.
Have any of you experienced painters used "fisheye eliminator" with Perfection?
Have any of you experienced painters used "fisheye eliminator" with Perfection?
Regards,
Troy Scott
Troy Scott
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John Stone
- Posts: 3621
- Joined: Oct 6th, '08, 07:30
- Location: S/V Far Reach: CD 36 #61 www.farreachvoayges.net www.farreachvoyages.com
Troy,
I'll be using Perfection as well.
Istarted off by washing the boat and then wiped it down with Insterlux 202. Then I did the deck work and sanding. When I was finished I washed it and wiped it down with Interlux 202 agina. Tomorrow I roll on Alquick 2 part Mediuim build primer to cover the transition between the gelcoat and all my fairing--more of a finish fairing primer than a straight primer. The plan is four coats. Then sand. Then wash and wipe down with Interlux 2333N. Then apply Interlux E-Kote 2 part primer, sand, then start the process prepping for Perfection.
I am using Interdeck for non-skid.
I agree Alwgrip and some of the other products are the best but this is a DIY project and I don't spray.
Good luck.
I'll be using Perfection as well.
Istarted off by washing the boat and then wiped it down with Insterlux 202. Then I did the deck work and sanding. When I was finished I washed it and wiped it down with Interlux 202 agina. Tomorrow I roll on Alquick 2 part Mediuim build primer to cover the transition between the gelcoat and all my fairing--more of a finish fairing primer than a straight primer. The plan is four coats. Then sand. Then wash and wipe down with Interlux 2333N. Then apply Interlux E-Kote 2 part primer, sand, then start the process prepping for Perfection.
I am using Interdeck for non-skid.
I agree Alwgrip and some of the other products are the best but this is a DIY project and I don't spray.
Good luck.
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Oswego John
- Posts: 3535
- Joined: Feb 5th, '05, 20:42
- Location: '66 Typhoon "Grace", Hull # 42, Schooner "Ontario", CD 85D Hull #1
Topside Paint, Two Part, Roll and Tip, Spray
Troy and all,
I once had a good friend who was a master painter. Shipyards and marinas fought for his services. He could do it all. A modern day Rembrandt.
He had a saying that when it came to spraying, some people had THE TOUCH, most people didn't. Some people were painters, others were schmears. That's why they made roll and tip. (I think that I might be the latter.)
He told me that most cases of fish eye was caused by foreign properties and impurities on the surface, silicon, oil or grease and a few other things. Many times, people spraying don't realize that they aren't using the proper air pressure. It could be either too high or too low for the job. This is common since the advent of the HVLP guns.
Distance from the air gun tip to the work is important. Either too close or too high an air pressure blasts the paint against the work, which could cause splashing on the surface and create egg shell, among other things.
Too low a pressure prevents the paint to properly atomize. Too high a working air pressure or too much distance between the work and the mix will cloud and will leave too little paint coverage with a sweep, thus resulting in the necessity for many extra coats.
The paint thinner used must be compatible to the paint being used.
Using the correct thinner, but not enough of it, allows the application to be too heavy a viscosity and susceptible to running and sagging. Another cause of fish eye is too much thinner being used in the paint mix. Too much thinner and the thinner dries too rapidly compared with the body of the paint.
The moral of the story is when all else fails, Roll and Tip.
(only kidding)
O J
I once had a good friend who was a master painter. Shipyards and marinas fought for his services. He could do it all. A modern day Rembrandt.
He had a saying that when it came to spraying, some people had THE TOUCH, most people didn't. Some people were painters, others were schmears. That's why they made roll and tip. (I think that I might be the latter.)
He told me that most cases of fish eye was caused by foreign properties and impurities on the surface, silicon, oil or grease and a few other things. Many times, people spraying don't realize that they aren't using the proper air pressure. It could be either too high or too low for the job. This is common since the advent of the HVLP guns.
Distance from the air gun tip to the work is important. Either too close or too high an air pressure blasts the paint against the work, which could cause splashing on the surface and create egg shell, among other things.
Too low a pressure prevents the paint to properly atomize. Too high a working air pressure or too much distance between the work and the mix will cloud and will leave too little paint coverage with a sweep, thus resulting in the necessity for many extra coats.
The paint thinner used must be compatible to the paint being used.
Using the correct thinner, but not enough of it, allows the application to be too heavy a viscosity and susceptible to running and sagging. Another cause of fish eye is too much thinner being used in the paint mix. Too much thinner and the thinner dries too rapidly compared with the body of the paint.
The moral of the story is when all else fails, Roll and Tip.
(only kidding)
O J
"If I rest, I rust"
Voting Member #490
Voting Member #490
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Jeff Barnes
- Posts: 141
- Joined: Jun 5th, '05, 20:19
- Location: CD36 "Blue Note" Harwich Port, MA
Awlgrip and Perfection
Troy,
Greetings. Lots of great info in all these replies, as usual so I'm not sure if I can add a great deal. I painted my topside 6 years ago with Awlgrip and with an annual applkication of Awlcare inthe Spring, it still looks brand new. A couple of minor dings that aren't that noticeable, yet no major repair work has been needed. The paint has stood up admirably. It was sprayed, as Awlgrip should be. I applied Perfection to my spars a few years ago. I sprayed the boom...real pain in the ass trying to get the correct viscosity etc. Ended up rolling and tipping the mast whcih turned out great. Perfecttion really should be rolled and tipped. I think it's really important to apply the epoxy primer first. It will assure good great adhesion and eliminates the concern of contamination. Gelcoat is not really a good substitute for a Perfection substrate. Your fish eye is undoubtedly due to the surface (yes most lilkely silicone). Bottom line for me is, Awlgrip is still my preferred choice for topside finish...just don't hit anything.
Regards,
Jeff
Greetings. Lots of great info in all these replies, as usual so I'm not sure if I can add a great deal. I painted my topside 6 years ago with Awlgrip and with an annual applkication of Awlcare inthe Spring, it still looks brand new. A couple of minor dings that aren't that noticeable, yet no major repair work has been needed. The paint has stood up admirably. It was sprayed, as Awlgrip should be. I applied Perfection to my spars a few years ago. I sprayed the boom...real pain in the ass trying to get the correct viscosity etc. Ended up rolling and tipping the mast whcih turned out great. Perfecttion really should be rolled and tipped. I think it's really important to apply the epoxy primer first. It will assure good great adhesion and eliminates the concern of contamination. Gelcoat is not really a good substitute for a Perfection substrate. Your fish eye is undoubtedly due to the surface (yes most lilkely silicone). Bottom line for me is, Awlgrip is still my preferred choice for topside finish...just don't hit anything.
Regards,
Jeff
spraying perfection
I've had good results applying Perfection by spray. Use the correct reducer and thin it to a almost water like viscosity. That may be somewhat thinner than directions suggest. A number of thin coats are better than fewer thick coats. The best results from application over their epoxy primer. As stated it's not as hard as awlgrip but is easier to repair and much less temperamental to use. I did all spars 3 years ago and they look as good today as they did when fresh.
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Chrysler Royal (Australia) History
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Chrysler Royal (Australia) History
Last edited by Ron M. on Feb 11th, '11, 06:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Andy Denmark
- Posts: 630
- Joined: Feb 5th, '05, 11:38
Alex Seal
Troy,
Check out Alex Seal. One of the better boatyards here is using it almost exclusively for high gloss, high durability coating. It is a definite improvement over Awlgrip, IMO.
www.alexseal.com
They make a full line of fillers, sealers, primers, etc., all compatible. Prices are comparable to Awlgrip. It is important to follow their directions which are different from anything you've ever used before --- not more difficult but simply not the same.
Andy
________
Mflb Vaporizer
Check out Alex Seal. One of the better boatyards here is using it almost exclusively for high gloss, high durability coating. It is a definite improvement over Awlgrip, IMO.
www.alexseal.com
They make a full line of fillers, sealers, primers, etc., all compatible. Prices are comparable to Awlgrip. It is important to follow their directions which are different from anything you've ever used before --- not more difficult but simply not the same.
Andy
________
Mflb Vaporizer
Last edited by Andy Denmark on Feb 13th, '11, 03:47, edited 1 time in total.
I forgot this one
Troy, many years ago I helped paint a friends boat with 'Signature Finish'
paint. That paintjob was beautiful and lasted many years. I think it is a 2 part acrylic paint made by the same fellow that manufactures Honey Teak. Tom Fabula, I recall as his name. He was in Fl. and you could call him on the phone, he was very knowlegable and helpful. That product was easy to use with impressive results. Might be worth a look.
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FERRARI F2002 HISTORY
paint. That paintjob was beautiful and lasted many years. I think it is a 2 part acrylic paint made by the same fellow that manufactures Honey Teak. Tom Fabula, I recall as his name. He was in Fl. and you could call him on the phone, he was very knowlegable and helpful. That product was easy to use with impressive results. Might be worth a look.
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FERRARI F2002 HISTORY
Last edited by Ron M. on Feb 11th, '11, 06:17, edited 1 time in total.