topsides paint, single or two part? roll-and-tip? spray?

[Troy Scott]

Folks,

Well, it will soon be time to paint the topsides. I'm not inexperienced when it comes to paint and varnish, but there is a lot to consider. I thought I had decided on Interlux Perfection. No doubt that's a fine choice. However, while there's still time, I'd like to get some input from you guys (and gals). Here is my work environment:
1. Indoors, airplane hangar
2. I have pretty decent control over temperature and humidity.
3. This place is dusty at best; I will have to do something about this.
4. I have fairly decent lighting, and I can easily add more.
5. I have the ability to thoroughly ventilate the area, but at the expense of temperature and humidity control. It would be filtered outside air.
6. I do have spray equipment and a breathing system. I can temporarily transform the hangar into a ventilated "paint booth". However, the dust control would not be perfect, and my airport neighbors might hate me, especially is I get overspray on somebody's multi-million-dollar jet. (I'm still willing to roll-and tip...)

Here are (some of) my requirements:
1. The paint needs to be reasonably hard and glossy.
2. The paint needs good scratch resistance.
3. The paint needs to stay glossy for a long time.
4. I would like to be able to polish the paint when it begins to lose gloss.
4. I want to be able to easily touch up the paint without hauling the boat.
5. I want to work with as few poisonous chemicals as is reasonably possible.
6. For roll-and-tip, I need a paint that will have a long wet edge, good flowability, and good self-leveling.
7. The paint needs to be easy to use, not "fussy".

I know that some of the two-part polyurethanes cannot be polished without destroying the hard glossy layer. This doesn't seem like a good choice for a boat. I know that some of the single part paints are reasonably hard and durable. Some paints are a lot more "fussy" than others to use; I tried rolling and tipping Perfection, but apparently I have more to learn with that one....

I have reasonably good luck handling single-part marine paint. Right now I have these possible topsides paints in mind:

1. Interlux Perfection (two part)
2. Brightsides
3. Toplac
4. Epifanes mono-urethane
5. System Three Resins WRLPU (two part, and they don't claim high gloss, but it isn't poisonous!)

Of the above (today, right now) Epifanes mono-urethane seems attractive. I've never used it, but it is said to have good gloss retention, good scratch resistance, excellent flowability when rolled and tipped, etc.. I think I might enjoy using it.

I'm thinking that I will probably want to roll and tip if I can find a paint that will have a long wet edge, good flowability, and good self-leveling.

Folks, I realize that this post is too long, sorry. If anyone has the magic bullet, please let me know. Seriously, any help would be appreciated!

[Maine Sail]

Here are (some of) my requirements:
1. The paint needs to be reasonably hard and glossy.

Hardest Awlgrip, Alexseal Next Hardest Imron, Alwcraft 2000

2. The paint needs good scratch resistance.

Best Awlgrip, Alexseal Next Best Imron or Awlcraft

3. The paint needs to stay glossy for a long time.

Awlgrip or Alexseal will stay the glossiest for the longest with the least care but are not buffable so when they die they die. Imron or AwlCraft 2000 on the other hand are buffable and in my experience can outlast Awlgrip or Alexseal when properly cared for. My buddy Tim's fire engine red Imron is now 20 years old and looks fantastic.

4. I would like to be able to polish the paint when it begins to lose gloss.

Imron or Awlcraft 2000 (Acrylic Urethanes)

4. I want to be able to easily touch up the paint without hauling the boat.

Seeing as Awlgrip and Alexseal are really not buffable or wet sandable any touch ups will be quite tough. Imron or Awlcraft 2000...

5. I want to work with as few poisonous chemicals as is reasonably possible.

Some Crayola markers might be ok System Three fits this bill......

6. For roll-and-tip, I need a paint that will have a long wet edge, good flowability, and good self-leveling.

Awlgrip or Alexseal are easier to roll & tip than Awlcraft. The new Imron MS600 has a roll / tip version but I can't comment because I have never known anyone to roll and tip this product.

7. The paint needs to be easy to use, not "fussy".

Good luck, even pros have their bad days.. It will always be best to practice on a sheet of glass...

I know that some of the two-part polyurethanes cannot be polished without destroying the hard glossy layer. This doesn't seem like a good choice for a boat.

You hit the nail on the nail on the head...

I know that some of the single part paints are reasonably hard and durable.

If they really were "reasonably hard" more people would be using them. The reality is that single part paint don't and can't compare with a two part in terms of durability or longevity. Been there done that..

Some paints are a lot more "fussy" than others to use; I tried rolling and tipping Perfection, but apparently I have more to learn with that one....

If you had trouble with perfection then you will certainly have trouble with the pro-grade paints. Perfection is engineered & formulated to roll and tip. Sure you can spray it but it was intended as a DIY roll tip product..

I have reasonably good luck handling single-part marine paint. Right now I have these possible topsides paints in mind:

1. Interlux Perfection (two part)
2. Brightsides
3. Toplac
4. Epifanes mono-urethane
5. System Three Resins WRLPU (two part, and they don't claim high gloss, but it isn't poisonous!)

Of the above (today, right now) Epifanes mono-urethane seems attractive. I've never used it, but it is said to have good gloss retention, good scratch resistance, excellent flowability when rolled and tipped, etc.. I think I might enjoy using it.

I'm thinking that I will probably want to roll and tip if I can find a paint that will have a long wet edge, good flowability, and good self-leveling.

Folks, I realize that this post is too long, sorry. If anyone has the magic bullet, please let me know. Seriously, any help would be appreciated!

Troy if you are going to do all this prep work please do yourself a favor and use a high quality two part paint like Awlcraft, Imron MS600, Awlgrip or Alexseal. perfection is ok but not up to the hardness of either Awlcraft or Awlgrip. I talk to the rep every now and then and he gives me the straight dope. In fact he was the one who steered me towards Awlcraft. If I had to do it over today I would be using Imron's new MS600 hands down!


More info:

Awlgrip cures like a clear coat / base coat system with the clear very hard solids rising to the surface of the paint creating a hard, high shine shell. If you buff through this very, very thin layer you've ruined the finish.

Essentially the linear polyester resins can not be re-melted, well actually they can but the melt temp window is sooo narrow that you go from re-melt to destroy in just a few degree window. What actually happens when you compound or buff a painted surface is surface melt, because the window time of time between melt & disintegrate is so narrow on AwlGrip or Alexseal it is virtually impossible to buff or polish without destroying the thin hard protective shell if you are not a pro and even then lots of pro's ruin Awlgrip..

It is nearly impossible, and totally impossible for a novice who has not had serious specialty training or years working with LPU's, to keep an LPU at the right temp to re-melt without destroying it in the process. To dumb it down it sort of goes like this when buffing Awlgrip.


To cool, to cool, to cool, to cool, to cool, to cool, to cool, to cool, to cool, to cool, to cool, to cool, to cool, to cool, to cool, to cool, to cool, to cool, to cool, to cool, to cool, to cool, to cool, to cool, melt (right temp for a split second), destroyed.......

Acrylic Urethane two part paints such as Imron MS600 can be buffed because the re-melt window is much wider and they don't cure the same as an LPU. The pigment on an acrylic urethane is the full thickness not sitting under the clear solids..

This photo illustrates a destroyed Awlgrip finish. Note the shine on the majority of the hull even after many years. Now look at the center of the photo and you'll notice a large dull area. This is what happens when you chew through Awlgrips "protective shell". It is destroyed...



Do people buff AwlGrip? Yes but it should only be as a last resort because you will then be a slave to it and it will require AwlCare frequently to maintain a shine..

Here's what AwlGrip has to say (not my words theirs):

"Do not use abrasives, scratch pads, or compounds. Scratching the surface gives dirt a place to cling while wearing out the resin layer. Using abrasives of any kind will reduce the overall life of the finish and voids the Awlgrip Limited Warranty."

Anything in contact with the Awlgrip can eventually wear through the outer hard shell. While it is very hard it is also very, very thin..

This is why products like Awlcraft 2000 or Dupont Imron MS600, which are repairable and buffable, are seeing growth in the paint market and Awlgrip is beginning to sag in market share.

I spoke with no less than 8-9 builders at the Maine Boat Builders show this past spring who are now using AwlCraft 2000 and three using the new Imron MS600. Morris had just painted a boat with Imron MS600, as did Hogdon Brothers (read very, very, very high end) and are also potentially looking to make the switch to more buffable & repairable finishes.

Our booth was actually across the aisle from Morris and I over heard a couple of potential cutomers saying they did not like AwlGrip as a finish and were asking about other alternatives. We were also next to New England Fiberglass who uses Imron MS600 (used to use AwlCraft 2000 but has sort of switched) Dave also had customers complaining about AwlGrip all weekend and it's lack of repair-ability.

[Jeff D]

There was a good recent article in PS with almost the same title as your post.

[Maine Sail]

There was a good recent article in PS with almost the same title as your post.

And they summed it up like this:

"Testing Confirs It: There Are No Shortcuts For A DIY Topsides Job"


The only tested paint to receive an Excellent rating for both hardness and abrasion resistance was Awlgrip. They however did not test Awlcraft 2000, Imron or Alexseal. In fact Awlgrip was the ONLY paint to get an Excellent rating in every category.

Alexseal, Imron MS600 and Awlcraft 2000 are all top shelf paints that were not tested...[/i][/b]

[Oswego John]

Maine Sail,

Very interesting and knowledgeable info. Thanks.

I'm wondering if there is any signifcant differences in the coverings that you mentioned in relation to UV damage.

What roller nap (length) do you recommend when doing roll/tip.

I have been using a better grade boar's hair 3" feathered brush. Is that about right or could I improve on the brush choice?

When doing topside painting, I generally roll and tip vertically in order to keep a shorter wetted edge. Sometimes, depending on circumstances, I roll horizontally but tip vertically. Any thoughts? Suggestions? Anyone do it differently?

Good thread.
O J

[Troy Scott]

Maine Sail,

Thanks for your interesting remarks.

What is your experience with System Three Resins WRLPU?

[Ron M.]

OJ. LPU paints are quite thin, almost like water. I've used a 1/8" nap mohair roller/ 3" china bristle brush with very good results. You need to use the proper reducer for roll/tip so brush marks will 'flow'out.
The 1st coat will not be impressive. With the 2nd you will begin to like what you see. The 3rd will make you feel like a pro.
I can't stress how important fastidious preparation and cleanup is before you paint. Follow manufacturers direction to a 'T'.
________
Volcano Vaporizers

[Ron M.]

Troy.
When painting with this stuff the proper respirator/filter is an absolute must. Organic vapor cartridge/filter from 3M works well. You can't detect any smell but your own sweet breath. Eye protection also.
Great info Mainsail.
I have used Awlgrip with mixed results. very temperamental, even for a pro.
Awlcraft 2000 sounds promising, haven't tried it.
Imron, somewhat less fussy than Awlgrip. Used to have fewer color choices.
Perfection - quite user friendly, easy to work with but not as tough.
Not familiar with Alex seal, or system 3.
A few years back I used an acrylic 2 part polyurethane by HMG which I liked working with. Tougher than Perfection, nice gloss, and easy to repair. It was distributed out of N.Carolina I think, may not be available any longer. I'm sure there are other acrylic lpu's.
If you use a good quality HVLP sprayer your paint will go farther with much less overspray. Good luck. prep is key
________
Colorado Dispensaries

[Troy Scott]

Thanks, Ron!

"IF" I choose to use an extremely poisonous two-part paint (I have in the past) I will use my Hobby Air breathing system, with the pump far away and upwind of the poisonous vapors. Still, I will put a new organic vapors filter on the pump intake. I do this for ordinary paint thinner too, and sanding dust, and metal polishing dust, etc., etc..

I realize that it's probably a hopeless search, but I really would like to find a nice, easy-to-use single part paint that would last. But I'll probably end up using something difficult and expensive

[Raymond]

Beware that ". . . isocyanates have no detectable odor except at very high concentrations, so you may not know when the [organic vapor and particulate] cartridges need to be replaced on your respirator." Don't fool around spraying, rolling or brushing two-part marine coatings unless you have professional safety equipment -- supplied-air, positive-pressure respirators.

[SurryMark]

Most of this has been covered here, but there also is a big thread going on at the bristol boat owners site at yahoo groups. The following is from one of the comments.
+++
There is a difference in these various two-part coatings. I happened to be talking about this with one of the paint guys at the marina last week. He was commenting on how Peregrine's paint looks practically new. It's Imron, applied in 2000. He prefers Imron over Awlgrip, but the yard isn't using Imron any more. (I don't know why.) My understanding of the difference between Imron and Awlgrip is as follows: Imron cures into a homogeneous coating which means that minor scuffs can be polished out. I use a no-wax auto clearcoat polish every year and it brings the surface back to like-new condition. Minor scuffs polish out. By contrast, I understand that Awlgrip and some of the other two-part coatings cure with a clear, shiny surface over the pigment. Once the surface is scuffed, the shine can't be fully restored. But it's likely that only the fish will notice.

It's time- and energy-consuming but you can get almost the same "wet" look by hand. Back in the late '80s I used Petit Unipoxy (I think) on my wooden Thistle. WEST epoxy on the wood, then high-build primer and lots of dry sanding between coats, then several coats of Unipoxy with wet sanding between coats. Most people thought it was a sprayed finish over fiberglass.

Jim Fulton
B34 - Peregrine
Solomons, MD

[Troy Scott]

Mark,

Thanks for your story. I'm guessing that the modern version of the single part paint you mentioned is Pettit Easypoxy. I'm sure it's possible to roll and tip a beautiful finish with it. I've never understood the name, which to me suggests that it's an epoxy product, when in reality it's a urethane paint.

If I do decide to use a two part LPU, I think I want to use one that can be polished. But, I need to find out if there is a polishable LPU that will roll and tip well.

[Troy Scott]

Maine Sail,

Have you tried to roll and tip Imron MS600? Have you spoken to anyone who has done this successfully? Their literature says it's possible, but that their recommendation is to spray. I really would not want to be the ground breaker here. I like to benefit from others' experience.

[Ron M.]

One of the 1st things I did with my boat was to paint the inside of the hull, engine room, lazarettes, sprayhood and hatch with a Pittsburg paint that was called a modified epoxy/urethane. It behaved and had the characteristics of a one part oil based paint, and has worn like iron. It is glossy and cleans easily when mildew forms. Very satisfied with it. I also painted the interior of my Sturdee dink and that has held up well also. I'm not recommending it for the exterior of a vessel.......but there are worse choices.I do recommend it for the applications described.
________
CHEAP GLASS PIPES

[Maine Sail]

Mark,

Thanks for your story. I'm guessing that the modern version of the single part paint you mentioned is Pettit Easypoxy. I'm sure it's possible to roll and tip a beautiful finish with it. I've never understood the name, which to me suggests that it's an epoxy product, when in reality it's a urethane paint.

If I do decide to use a two part LPU, I think I want to use one that can be polished. But, I need to find out if there is a polishable LPU that will roll and tip well.

Troy,

Technically Awlcraft 2000 and Imron are considered acrylic urethanes and are not LPU's or linear polyurethanes. While the two are similar the cure characteristics are different.

As for MS 600 I do not know anyone who has rolled and tipped but I have seen two boats now done with it and they look amazing!

This was my buddy Tim's Imron boat at the 17 year mark after we polished her a few years ago.. Show me an LPU that still looks that good at 17 years..?




There is a reason I chose an acrylic urethane when I painted mine.... That Imron just finished it's 20th season and still looks very, very good.