Self-Tailing Winches: Luxury or Necessity?

Joe Myerson · Post by **Joe Myerson** » Jun 21st, '07, 15:06

Esteemed colleagues, particularly those of the 25D variety,

I finally installed my new 130 genoa last Sunday, when the wind was blowing so hard on Buzzards Bay that I ended up rolling most of it up (it has a rope luff).

But now I'm beginning to wonder if I'm going to need self-tailing winches (those little rubber "Winchers" functioned moderately well for the three seasons that I sailed with my working jib).

So here are the questions:

1) Do people single-hand with gennies without self-tailing winches?

2) If the answer to #1 is, "no," then what size and brand of self-tailers do people who have them recommend (I've got a 25D with a genny that has a raised clew)?

2a) How much can I expect to pay for these wonders? (I guess if folks answer question 2, I can look the winches up on the net.)

3) How difficult is it to install self-tailing winches? Can a world-class klutz do it, or will I end up paying $80/hour to have the yard do it?

Thanks, as always,

--Joe

P.S. I'm one of those Luddites who uses paper charts doesn't have an automatic bilge pump. On the other hand, my joints (and the rest of me) aren't getting any stronger with the passage of time.

Jerry Hammernik · Post by **Jerry Hammernik** » Jun 21st, '07, 15:19

Joe,

I have a 150 genoa on my CD28. I use two speed winches, non-self tailing. It is a lot easier to do when the autopilot is on, because then I don't need to steer with my leg.

Joe Myerson · Post by **Joe Myerson** » Jun 21st, '07, 15:28

Thanks Jerry.

Actually, I've been meaning to replace the original-equipment Navico Tillerpilot that blows fuses and hasn't worked since I bought the boat.

Oh, well, another place to spend money.

--Joe

Neil Gordon · Post by **Neil Gordon** » Jun 21st, '07, 15:46

Joe,

No self tailers here. Steer with your leg or tie off the tiller for a bit and you'll be fine. Spend the $$$ you save on single malt scotch.

(Speaking of which... I do have some waiting for you!)

Boyd · Post by **Boyd** » Jun 21st, '07, 16:35

My boat came with self tailers. I single hand and they are great. I just leave the tail in the plastic wedges when sailing and if I want to harden up I just crank. To release a sheet I just give it one unwrap and she is off. I dont use the unless the wind is really strong. Can't imagine life without them. Leaves me with one hand for the boat.

I also use an Autohelm much of the time. Its old and futzy so I will replace it soon.

Boyd
s/v Tern
CD30 MkII
Fort Lauderdale, Fla.

Warren Kaplan · Post by **Warren Kaplan** » Jun 21st, '07, 16:56

Self tailers are like an extra pair of hands. Always useful when there are lines to be handled. Are they absolutely necessary? Nope. But once you've used them you'll never want to go back to non ST winches.

I single hand about 90% of the time and I can trim sail with my self tailers and steer at the same time. They do make life aboard a lot easier!!

John Ring · Post by **John Ring** » Jun 21st, '07, 17:02

[img]http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x105 ... erdeck.jpg[/img] [img]http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x105 ... gWinch.jpg[/img]

Joe,

Adding self tailing winches is right up there with roller furling and auto pilots for making solo sailing easier. Installation is just a matter of unbolting your old winches, and using the template (provided) to drill a new bolt pattern on the stands. Your old winches probably come apart from the top to expose the bolts down low, with nuts on the underside of the stands. I put Andersen 28ST on my CD28, a great two speed ST winch at a reasonable price. Andersen used to offer tade-in $ for your old winches, making it all the sweeter.

Best,
John Ring
CD28 Tantalus

Joe Myerson · Post by **Joe Myerson** » Jun 21st, '07, 18:16

Neil,

I'll drink to that!

(Where is Liquidity berthed this year? I was walking around the boardwalk this afternoon, but I didn't spot your signal flags, so I assume you and Roxy were out sailing.)

Actually, I'll try sailing without the various gadgets for a while to see how well I do with the new genny. Maybe I'll end up with fancy winches; I think a slightly newer tillerpilot might come first.

(I still remember that 60 mile slog from Sandwich to Quincy -- ugh!)

--Joe

David Hest · Post by **David Hest** » Jun 21st, '07, 18:29

An article on the Harken website by Brion Toss describes how to calculate winch size based on headsail area. I found it useful when I bought self-tailers to help wrangle the 150 genoa on my Typhoon Daysailor. By this calculation, my former Lewmar 6s had about a third of the power he recommends.

Here is the url: http://www.harken.com/winches/BrionToss_Winchpower.php

Dick Kobayashi · Post by **Dick Kobayashi** » Jun 21st, '07, 19:54

I don't have STs yet, but the very first year I owned Susan B - 6 years ago now, I purchased a Raymarine tiller pilot. Not being a tiller slave adds a lot of enjoyment and takes some pressure off my wife who hates taking the tiller. She considers the TP second only to roller furling as a miracle invention. So IMHO go with the TP first. Trimming that genoa is ok without ST winches - it takes a little time when you are alone - but it is not really a big deal - not always pretty to look at - but observers are far and few between.

bottomscraper · Post by **bottomscraper** » Jun 21st, '07, 21:26

I can't answer the first few questions but you can check prices online at Rigging Only:

http://www.riggingonly.com/

They handle Andersen, Harken and Lewmar. They also sell all bronze Lewmars, if I remember correctly the all bronze Lewmar price was a bit less than the chrome versions.

You can install them yourself, its no big deal.

Carter Brey · Post by **Carter Brey** » Jun 21st, '07, 22:31

My sheet winches are Lewmar Ocean 40 two-speed self-tailers. I love them. Dialing in the 150 genoa after a tack is much easier when singlehanding. I wish I had them on the cabin roof as well, instead of the non-self-tailing one-speed Lewmar 8's that I use for the halyards and reefing lines.

Now, about my electric bilge pump....

Dick Barthel · Post by **Dick Barthel** » Jun 21st, '07, 22:45

Joe,

I installed Andersen ST 12s on my 25D two years ago. As I recall, only one hole had to be drilled in the original mount. They are the perfect size. As Warren said, once you use them you'd never want to be without them when you're alone. To me, after the roller furling and the auto pilot, the self tailors are my next best purchase to make single handing easier. There is just no comparison when tacking on a beat.

I'm sending you a private message.

Dick

Dean Abramson · Post by **Dean Abramson** » Jun 22nd, '07, 07:19

Joe,

As you install the ST winches, look into the angle the sheet will enter the new winch at.

Our PO installed ST winches, and I was thrilled to get them. But it turns out that the angle of the sheet into the winch is greater than on a standard winch, because the recessed part of the drum is up higher. This, unfortunately, results in riding turns. I am probbaly going to have to install a slanted teak spacer between the winch pad and the winch.

Just something to make note of.

Dean

rtbates · Post by **rtbates** » Jun 25th, '07, 08:37

NON self tailers take two hands to adjust sail trim either in or out. That leaves 0 hands for anything else, assuming you're single handing. I replaced Seraph's winches with Andersen 12St and unfortunately for me I'm totally addicted to them.

Now to get that new head put on!! Hopefully it'll arrive this week.

The Cape Dory Board

Self-Tailing Winches: Luxury or Necessity?

Self-Tailing Winches: Luxury or Necessity?

I use two speed

Oh yeah, the autopilot

Self tailing

Here's to us Luddites!

Brion Toss sizing guideline

Autohelm First

Self tailers

Andersen ST 12

Angle