Self-Tailing Winches: Luxury or Necessity?

Discussions about Cape Dory, Intrepid and Robinhood sailboats and how we use them. Got questions? Have answers? Provide them here.

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Joe Myerson
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Joined: Feb 6th, '05, 11:22
Location: s/v Creme Brulee, CD 25D, Hull #80, Squeteague Harbor, MA

Self-Tailing Winches: Luxury or Necessity?

Post by Joe Myerson »

Esteemed colleagues, particularly those of the 25D variety,

I finally installed my new 130 genoa last Sunday, when the wind was blowing so hard on Buzzards Bay that I ended up rolling most of it up (it has a rope luff).

But now I'm beginning to wonder if I'm going to need self-tailing winches (those little rubber "Winchers" functioned moderately well for the three seasons that I sailed with my working jib).

So here are the questions:

1) Do people single-hand with gennies without self-tailing winches?

2) If the answer to #1 is, "no," then what size and brand of self-tailers do people who have them recommend (I've got a 25D with a genny that has a raised clew)?

2a) How much can I expect to pay for these wonders? (I guess if folks answer question 2, I can look the winches up on the net.)

3) How difficult is it to install self-tailing winches? Can a world-class klutz do it, or will I end up paying $80/hour to have the yard do it?

Thanks, as always,

--Joe

P.S. I'm one of those Luddites who uses paper charts doesn't have an automatic bilge pump. On the other hand, my joints (and the rest of me) aren't getting any stronger with the passage of time.
Former Commodore, CDSOA
Former Captain, Northeast Fleet
S/V Crème Brûlée, CD 25D, Hull # 80

"What a greate matter it is to saile a shyppe or goe to sea."
--Capt. John Smith, 1627
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Jerry Hammernik
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Location: Lion's Paw CD 28 #341
Lake Michigan

I use two speed

Post by Jerry Hammernik »

Joe,

I have a 150 genoa on my CD28. I use two speed winches, non-self tailing. It is a lot easier to do when the autopilot is on, because then I don't need to steer with my leg.
Jerry Hammernik

"Money can't buy happiness, but it sure can buy a lot of things that will make me happy."
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Joe Myerson
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Joined: Feb 6th, '05, 11:22
Location: s/v Creme Brulee, CD 25D, Hull #80, Squeteague Harbor, MA

Oh yeah, the autopilot

Post by Joe Myerson »

Thanks Jerry.

Actually, I've been meaning to replace the original-equipment Navico Tillerpilot that blows fuses and hasn't worked since I bought the boat.

Oh, well, another place to spend money.

--Joe
Former Commodore, CDSOA
Former Captain, Northeast Fleet
S/V Crème Brûlée, CD 25D, Hull # 80

"What a greate matter it is to saile a shyppe or goe to sea."
--Capt. John Smith, 1627
Neil Gordon
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Location: s/v LIQUIDITY, CD28. We sail from Marina Bay on Boston Harbor. Try us on channel 9.
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Post by Neil Gordon »

Joe,

No self tailers here. Steer with your leg or tie off the tiller for a bit and you'll be fine. Spend the $$$ you save on single malt scotch.

(Speaking of which... I do have some waiting for you!)
Fair winds, Neil

s/v LIQUIDITY
Cape Dory 28 #167
Boston, MA

CDSOA member #698
Boyd
Posts: 403
Joined: May 9th, '05, 10:23
Location: CD 30 MkII

Self tailing

Post by Boyd »

My boat came with self tailers. I single hand and they are great. I just leave the tail in the plastic wedges when sailing and if I want to harden up I just crank. To release a sheet I just give it one unwrap and she is off. I dont use the unless the wind is really strong. Can't imagine life without them. Leaves me with one hand for the boat.

I also use an Autohelm much of the time. Its old and futzy so I will replace it soon.

Boyd
s/v Tern
CD30 MkII
Fort Lauderdale, Fla.
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Warren Kaplan
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Location: Former owner of Sine Qua Non CD27 #166 1980 Oyster Bay Harbor, NY Member # 317

Post by Warren Kaplan »

Self tailers are like an extra pair of hands. Always useful when there are lines to be handled. Are they absolutely necessary? Nope. But once you've used them you'll never want to go back to non ST winches.

I single hand about 90% of the time and I can trim sail with my self tailers and steer at the same time. They do make life aboard a lot easier!! :D
"I desire no more delight, than to be under sail and gone tonight."
(W. Shakespeare, Merchant of Venice)
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John Ring
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Location: CD36 #135 Tiara, MMSI:338141386

Post by John Ring »

[img]http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x105 ... erdeck.jpg[/img] [img]http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x105 ... gWinch.jpg[/img]

Joe,

Adding self tailing winches is right up there with roller furling and auto pilots for making solo sailing easier. Installation is just a matter of unbolting your old winches, and using the template (provided) to drill a new bolt pattern on the stands. Your old winches probably come apart from the top to expose the bolts down low, with nuts on the underside of the stands. I put Andersen 28ST on my CD28, a great two speed ST winch at a reasonable price. Andersen used to offer tade-in $ for your old winches, making it all the sweeter.

Best,
John Ring
CD28 Tantalus
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Joe Myerson
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Location: s/v Creme Brulee, CD 25D, Hull #80, Squeteague Harbor, MA

Here's to us Luddites!

Post by Joe Myerson »

Neil,

I'll drink to that!

(Where is Liquidity berthed this year? I was walking around the boardwalk this afternoon, but I didn't spot your signal flags, so I assume you and Roxy were out sailing.)

Actually, I'll try sailing without the various gadgets for a while to see how well I do with the new genny. Maybe I'll end up with fancy winches; I think a slightly newer tillerpilot might come first.

(I still remember that 60 mile slog from Sandwich to Quincy -- ugh!)

--Joe
Former Commodore, CDSOA
Former Captain, Northeast Fleet
S/V Crème Brûlée, CD 25D, Hull # 80

"What a greate matter it is to saile a shyppe or goe to sea."
--Capt. John Smith, 1627
David Hest
Posts: 26
Joined: Oct 3rd, '05, 13:11
Location: '79 Typhoon Daysailer, "Miss Ty," Hull #21

Brion Toss sizing guideline

Post by David Hest »

An article on the Harken website by Brion Toss describes how to calculate winch size based on headsail area. I found it useful when I bought self-tailers to help wrangle the 150 genoa on my Typhoon Daysailor. By this calculation, my former Lewmar 6s had about a third of the power he recommends.

Here is the url: http://www.harken.com/winches/BrionToss_Winchpower.php
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Dick Kobayashi
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Location: Former owner of 3 CDs, most recently Susan B, a 25D

Autohelm First

Post by Dick Kobayashi »

I don't have STs yet, but the very first year I owned Susan B - 6 years ago now, I purchased a Raymarine tiller pilot. Not being a tiller slave adds a lot of enjoyment and takes some pressure off my wife who hates taking the tiller. She considers the TP second only to roller furling as a miracle invention. So IMHO go with the TP first. Trimming that genoa is ok without ST winches - it takes a little time when you are alone - but it is not really a big deal - not always pretty to look at - but observers are far and few between.
Dick K
CD 25D Susan B #104
Mattapoisett, MA

Fleet Captain - Northeast Fleet 2014/2015



Tempus Fugit. And not only that, it goes by fast. (Ron Vacarro 1945 - 1971)
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bottomscraper
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Location: Previous Owner of CD36 Mahalo #163 1990
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Post by bottomscraper »

I can't answer the first few questions but you can check prices online at Rigging Only:

http://www.riggingonly.com/

They handle Andersen, Harken and Lewmar. They also sell all bronze Lewmars, if I remember correctly the all bronze Lewmar price was a bit less than the chrome versions.

You can install them yourself, its no big deal.
Rich Abato
Nordic Tug 34 Tanuki

Previous Owner Of CD36 Mahalo #163

Southern Maine
http://www.sailmahalo.com
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Carter Brey
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Location: 1982 Sabre 28 Mk II #532 "Delphine"
City Island, New York
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Self tailers

Post by Carter Brey »

My sheet winches are Lewmar Ocean 40 two-speed self-tailers. I love them. Dialing in the 150 genoa after a tack is much easier when singlehanding. I wish I had them on the cabin roof as well, instead of the non-self-tailing one-speed Lewmar 8's that I use for the halyards and reefing lines.

Now, about my electric bilge pump....
Dick Barthel
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Joined: Feb 5th, '05, 10:29
Location: Dream Weaver, CD25D, Noank, CT

Andersen ST 12

Post by Dick Barthel »

Joe,

I installed Andersen ST 12s on my 25D two years ago. As I recall, only one hole had to be drilled in the original mount. They are the perfect size. As Warren said, once you use them you'd never want to be without them when you're alone. To me, after the roller furling and the auto pilot, the self tailors are my next best purchase to make single handing easier. There is just no comparison when tacking on a beat.

I'm sending you a private message.

Dick
Dean Abramson
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Joined: Jul 5th, '05, 11:23
Location: CD 31 "Loda May"

Angle

Post by Dean Abramson »

Joe,

As you install the ST winches, look into the angle the sheet will enter the new winch at.

Our PO installed ST winches, and I was thrilled to get them. But it turns out that the angle of the sheet into the winch is greater than on a standard winch, because the recessed part of the drum is up higher. This, unfortunately, results in riding turns. I am probbaly going to have to install a slanted teak spacer between the winch pad and the winch.

Just something to make note of.

Dean
Dean Abramson
Cape Dory 31 "Loda May"
Falmouth, Maine
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rtbates
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Joined: Aug 18th, '05, 14:09
Location: 1984 25D #161

Post by rtbates »

NON self tailers take two hands to adjust sail trim either in or out. That leaves 0 hands for anything else, assuming you're single handing. I replaced Seraph's winches with Andersen 12St and unfortunately for me I'm totally addicted to them.

Now to get that new head put on!! Hopefully it'll arrive this week.
Randy 25D Seraph #161
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