Re: Battery selector Switches,
I've heard various answers to the question "can you change from ALL to 1 or 2 when the engine is running?". What IS the correct answer? Some have said that ALL is used only when 1 or 2 does not have enough umph to start the engine - is this true? Will both batteries charge when the switch is in all? I do know that the switch should NEVER be turned to OFF when the engine is running as this will wipe the diodes in the alternator (says so right on the switch).
Hanalei's alternator is in the shop as I post this. Check of it before removal showed that it was only putting out about .5 volts above battery voltage of 12.3. Don't know if it was defective before we bought the boat, didn't check it. The shop is going to install bearings, brushes, diodes, and check out the voltage regulator ($152.00). Last weekend, ended up with dead batteries, no radio, no depth sounder, nothing, and on a lea shore to boot with only stays'l and jib to claw off, which didn't work causing the anchor to be dropped and ultimate SeaTow! Not a good day, and I don't want to repeat it again. Any insight would be appreciated.
1, 2, All, Off Switch, Once and for All!
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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Lee H. Hodsdon
Re: 1, 2, All, Off Switch, Once and for All!
Dave,Dave Stump, Hanalei wrote: Re: Battery selector Switches,
I've heard various answers to the question "can you change from ALL to 1 or 2 when the engine is running?". What IS the correct answer? Some have said that ALL is used only when 1 or 2 does not have enough umph to start the engine - is this true? Will both batteries charge when the switch is in all? I do know that the switch should NEVER be turned to OFF when the engine is running as this will wipe the diodes in the alternator (says so right on the switch).
Hanalei's alternator is in the shop as I post this. Check of it before removal showed that it was only putting out about .5 volts above battery voltage of 12.3. Don't know if it was defective before we bought the boat, didn't check it. The shop is going to install bearings, brushes, diodes, and check out the voltage regulator ($152.00). Last weekend, ended up with dead batteries, no radio, no depth sounder, nothing, and on a lea shore to boot with only stays'l and jib to claw off, which didn't work causing the anchor to be dropped and ultimate SeaTow! Not a good day, and I don't want to repeat it again. Any insight would be appreciated.
First I am not a West Marine rep!! I have installed their Battery Combiner and it solves all of the above problems, assures a fully charged starting battery and eliminates the 1,2, ALL dilema, and as the West catalogue states, removes the problem of your brother in law as well.
Simply, the unit uses a voltage sensitive relay to combine both batteries, only after battery #1 (Cranking) has attained 13.2 VDC. At this point both batteries are brought to full charge. There is wiring to be done, and the installation of a couple of switches. If you are interested I can describe the task in more detail. All I can say is it works!
Sincerely,
Lee
S/V Loki, CD25D
lhodsdon@nh.ultrannet.com
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Bob B.
Re: 1, 2, All, Off Switch, Once and for All!
Dave,
We had an alternator that failed continuously in keeping batteries charged. I installed a solar charger and kept my eye on the electrical usage. We had refrigeration that was never operated out from the dock, I used all other electrical devices sparingly and I made sure that I knew how to use the decompression knob and crank start the engine. The latter is what I would suggest in assuring that you are not stuck with a tow again. You should be able to be electrically independent if you can crank start. Try it at the dock and get to where you feel comfortable with it. Then you will feel more sure of yourself when you are out.
Good luck with it,
Bob
BundyR@aol.com
We had an alternator that failed continuously in keeping batteries charged. I installed a solar charger and kept my eye on the electrical usage. We had refrigeration that was never operated out from the dock, I used all other electrical devices sparingly and I made sure that I knew how to use the decompression knob and crank start the engine. The latter is what I would suggest in assuring that you are not stuck with a tow again. You should be able to be electrically independent if you can crank start. Try it at the dock and get to where you feel comfortable with it. Then you will feel more sure of yourself when you are out.
Good luck with it,
Bob
Dave Stump, Hanalei wrote:
BundyR@aol.com
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Tom Coons
Re: 1, 2, All, Off Switch, Once and for All!
The idea behi8nd a battery switch is that the situation you describe should never happen (never say never). One battery you save only for starting the engine. The second battery you use to run the lights, refrigerator, radar and whatever you have. When the second battery runs down from all this use and is too weak to crank the engine you switch to battery #1 and start the engine then switch to battery #2 and charge it back up from the alternator. Battery switches should never be switched to "Off" while the engine is running but switching back and forth between #1, #2, and All is what a bettery switch is designed to do. If you leave the battery switch on #1 all the charge from the alternator goes only to battery 1, if you leave the switch on #2 all the charge from the alternator goes to battery 2. If you put the switch on "all" the alternator charges both battery #1 and battery #2. This arrangement allows you to monitor both your batteries and direct the charge wherever it is needed while always keeping one battery charged for starting the engine. The one thing you shouldn't do is sail around without the engine running and the battery switch on "all". This way you can run down both your batteries and not have any power to start the engine with. In that case you hand start the engine and get your batteries charged. This is a fail safe system unless you're alternator is defective and not putting out any charge, then, of course, your batteries simply run down and can't be charged. That's when you flip on the solar charger or wind generator to charge a battery to start the engine. Unlike your car engine, a diesel does not need any electrical input once it is started. It will run until you run out of fuel regardless of battery or alternator condition. It sounds like perhaps your alternator went bad and wasn't charging your batteries, or perhaps you switchd to "off" while the engine was running and fried it. 5 volts above full charge is plenty to charge a battery unless you have a huge drain going on. Those little chargers you buy at the auto supply store will charge a battery with only 2 volts. It just takes longer. If by some chance you have a battery switch that says don't switch between 1 and all or 1 and 2 while the engine is running get rid of it and get a normal marine switch. We've all been there and sympathize with your predicament. Good luck.Dave Stump, Hanalei wrote: Re: Battery selector Switches,
I've heard various answers to the question "can you change from ALL to 1 or 2 when the engine is running?". What IS the correct answer? Some have said that ALL is used only when 1 or 2 does not have enough umph to start the engine - is this true? Will both batteries charge when the switch is in all? I do know that the switch should NEVER be turned to OFF when the engine is running as this will wipe the diodes in the alternator (says so right on the switch).
Hanalei's alternator is in the shop as I post this. Check of it before removal showed that it was only putting out about .5 volts above battery voltage of 12.3. Don't know if it was defective before we bought the boat, didn't check it. The shop is going to install bearings, brushes, diodes, and check out the voltage regulator ($152.00). Last weekend, ended up with dead batteries, no radio, no depth sounder, nothing, and on a lea shore to boot with only stays'l and jib to claw off, which didn't work causing the anchor to be dropped and ultimate SeaTow! Not a good day, and I don't want to repeat it again. Any insight would be appreciated.
Tom Coons
CD31 "Heiress"
TacCambria@thegrid.net
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Russ Campbell
Re: 1, 2, All, Off Switch, Once and for All!
Dave, I just put a new alternator/ regulator in my boat from Ample Power in Seattle. Check out their web page at http://www.amplepower.com/Dave Stump, Hanalei wrote: Re: Battery selector Switches,
I've heard various answers to the question "can you change from ALL to 1 or 2 when the engine is running?". What IS the correct answer? Some have said that ALL is used only when 1 or 2 does not have enough umph to start the engine - is this true? Will both batteries charge when the switch is in all? I do know that the switch should NEVER be turned to OFF when the engine is running as this will wipe the diodes in the alternator (says so right on the switch).
Hanalei's alternator is in the shop as I post this. Check of it before removal showed that it was only putting out about .5 volts above battery voltage of 12.3. Don't know if it was defective before we bought the boat, didn't check it. The shop is going to install bearings, brushes, diodes, and check out the voltage regulator ($152.00). Last weekend, ended up with dead batteries, no radio, no depth sounder, nothing, and on a lea shore to boot with only stays'l and jib to claw off, which didn't work causing the anchor to be dropped and ultimate SeaTow! Not a good day, and I don't want to repeat it again. Any insight would be appreciated.
It may contain the answers to many of your questions. I am very pleased with my alternator. Also you may want to check out Balmar at http://www.balmarvst.com . Another company that comes highly recommended is Jack Rabbit Marine in Conn. They don't have a web page but they do have an e-mail address just search on them. Good Luck
Russ
Camroll@together.net
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Rod Morris
Re: 1, 2, All, Off Switch, Once and for All!
As I understand it most, if not all, switches make before break, so switching from 1 - 2 - ALL is OK. The alternator will fry if you switch to OFF, though. Nigel Caulder makes the point that using both batteries at once instead of one at a time is easier on the batteries. For example, if you use 50 amp hours out of 2 batteries you have used a lot less of the total battery reserve than if you use 50 amp hours out of 1 battery. The trick is not to let both batteries get low enough you can't crank the engine when you need it.Dave Stump, Hanalei wrote: I've heard various answers to the question "can you change from ALL to 1 or 2 when the engine is running?". What IS the correct answer? Some have said that ALL is used only when 1 or 2 does not have enough umph to start the engine - is this true? Will both batteries charge when the switch is in all? I do know that the switch should NEVER be turned to OFF when the engine is running as this will wipe the diodes in the alternator (says so right on the switch).
On my CD26 I have 2 batteries that are more than enough for a weekend use since I don't have ref., AC, etc. The only loads I have are cabin lights, radio, and anchor light. I put the switch on ALL and have plenty to start the outboard engine. (It has electric start and I like it!) If I were to go out for a week or more, I would probably use just 1 battery at a time. I'm using a flexible solar panel with a regulator that will charge 2 batteries at once. This will charge the batteries during the week when I'm not around, and I can leave the switch on OFF when I'm gone.
Rod
RVRMorris@compuserve.com
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Stephen
Re: 1, 2, All, Off Switch, Once and for All!
Just a clarification. I think the original poster said the alternator was putting out only 0.5 volts above full charge, not 5.0 volts. The point is that, so far as I know, most battery chargers, from high-powered marine alternators to budget automotive chargers, put out 14.5 volts to charge a 12-volt battery. The difference between them is in how many AMPS they put out. This is a big difference. Too few amps and it will take forever to charge your battery. Too many and you could damage it.Tom Coons wrote: switchd to "off" while the engine was running and fried it. 5 volts :above full charge is plenty to charge a battery unless you have a :huge drain going on. Those little chargers you buy at the auto :supply store will charge a battery with only 2 volts. It just takes :longer.
The issue of proper charging amperage is a tricky one because amps and volts are inversely proportional: that is, given the same wattage (power), as voltage decreases amperage increases. The more expensive alternator/charging systems take this into account.
Best,
Stephen
sailing@star.net
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Stephen
Hand Cranking (was Re: 1, 2, All, Off Switch, Once and for A
The manual for my CD22D says that starting by hand is difficult and they "recommend against it." I take it by your comment that it is not so tricky. Is that the case?Bob B. wrote: I knew how to use the decompression knob and crank start the engine. The latter is what I would suggest in assuring that you are not stuck with a tow again.
Stephen
sailing@star.net
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chuck yahrling
Re: 1, 2, All, Off Switch, Once and for All!
According to the 1998 West Marine sailbaot catalog, the Perko 8501Dp switch that came stock on my 1982 CD-27 is does not have an alternator disconnect, so it would be unwise for me to move the switch to any position after starting/before shutdown. The Perko 8503DP does have an alternator disconnect, which cuts the power to the field, which takes the alternator offline briefly while you switch, thus saving the diodes.Rod Morris wrote:As I understand it most, if not all, switches make before break, so switching from 1 - 2 - ALL is OK. The alternator will fry if you switch to OFF, though. Nigel Caulder makes the point that using both batteries at once instead of one at a time is easier on the batteries. For example, if you use 50 amp hours out of 2 batteries you have used a lot less of the total battery reserve than if you use 50 amp hours out of 1 battery. The trick is not to let both batteries get low enough you can't crank the engine when you need it.Dave Stump, Hanalei wrote: I've heard various answers to the question "can you change from ALL to 1 or 2 when the engine is running?". What IS the correct answer? Some have said that ALL is used only when 1 or 2 does not have enough umph to start the engine - is this true? Will both batteries charge when the switch is in all? I do know that the switch should NEVER be turned to OFF when the engine is running as this will wipe the diodes in the alternator (says so right on the switch).
On my CD26 I have 2 batteries that are more than enough for a weekend use since I don't have ref., AC, etc. The only loads I have are cabin lights, radio, and anchor light. I put the switch on ALL and have plenty to start the outboard engine. (It has electric start and I like it!) If I were to go out for a week or more, I would probably use just 1 battery at a time. I'm using a flexible solar panel with a regulator that will charge 2 batteries at once. This will charge the batteries during the week when I'm not around, and I can leave the switch on OFF when I'm gone.
Rod
yahrling@cybertours.com
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Tom Coons
Re: 1, 2, All, Off Switch, Once and for All!
Yes, you are exactly correct. My mind slipped there for a minute. Amps are the critical measure in turms of charge rate. Those one foot by 4 foot solar panels put out about 14.5 volts(under load) and 1.2 amps. 1.2 amps is a slow charge, but it's surprising how well they do. Your alternator can put out 20 or 30 amps or more depending how how it's rated, however the regulator "regulates" hom many amps go to the battery by the state of discharge. When the battery has a low charge it puts a lot of amps into it, but as the charge comes up it reduces the amps going to the battery. The volts stay constant. Your ammeter tells you how much amperage is going to the battery from the alternator. If your alternator goes bad it shows zero or minus amperage. Your battery condition meter tells you the state of charge of the battery by measuring its voltage.Stephen wrote:Just a clarification. I think the original poster said the alternator was putting out only 0.5 volts above full charge, not 5.0 volts. The point is that, so far as I know, most battery chargers, from high-powered marine alternators to budget automotive chargers, put out 14.5 volts to charge a 12-volt battery. The difference between them is in how many AMPS they put out. This is a big difference. Too few amps and it will take forever to charge your battery. Too many and you could damage it.Tom Coons wrote: switchd to "off" while the engine was running and fried it. 5 volts :above full charge is plenty to charge a battery unless you have a :huge drain going on. Those little chargers you buy at the auto :supply store will charge a battery with only 2 volts. It just takes :longer.
The issue of proper charging amperage is a tricky one because amps and volts are inversely proportional: that is, given the same wattage (power), as voltage decreases amperage increases. The more expensive alternator/charging systems take this into account.
Best,
Stephen
TacCambria@thegrid.net
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Joe
Re: 1, 2, All, Off Switch, Once and for All!
What Lee is describing is commonly known as a "smart regulator," available not only from West Marine, but also from Balmar, etc. Installed properly, a smart regulator bypasses the battery switch, dealing with each battery independently. Not only does this eliminate the "off switch" danger, but also makes it possible for all batteries to be charged to their topmost capacity, regardless of the amount stored in the other batteries (a standard regulator cuts off the charging current when any of the batteries is fully charged, leaving the other(s) at lower charges. This assumes, of course, that the switch is set on "both" or "all." Otherwise, only the battery selected receives a charge.Lee H. Hodsdon wrote:Dave,Dave Stump, Hanalei wrote: Re: Battery selector Switches,
I've heard various answers to the question "can you change from ALL to 1 or 2 when the engine is running?". What IS the correct answer? Some have said that ALL is used only when 1 or 2 does not have enough umph to start the engine - is this true? Will both batteries charge when the switch is in all? I do know that the switch should NEVER be turned to OFF when the engine is running as this will wipe the diodes in the alternator (says so right on the switch).
Hanalei's alternator is in the shop as I post this. Check of it before removal showed that it was only putting out about .5 volts above battery voltage of 12.3. Don't know if it was defective before we bought the boat, didn't check it. The shop is going to install bearings, brushes, diodes, and check out the voltage regulator ($152.00). Last weekend, ended up with dead batteries, no radio, no depth sounder, nothing, and on a lea shore to boot with only stays'l and jib to claw off, which didn't work causing the anchor to be dropped and ultimate SeaTow! Not a good day, and I don't want to repeat it again. Any insight would be appreciated.
First I am not a West Marine rep!! I have installed their Battery Combiner and it solves all of the above problems, assures a fully charged starting battery and eliminates the 1,2, ALL dilema, and as the West catalogue states, removes the problem of your brother in law as well.
Simply, the unit uses a voltage sensitive relay to combine both batteries, only after battery #1 (Cranking) has attained 13.2 VDC. At this point both batteries are brought to full charge. There is wiring to be done, and the installation of a couple of switches. If you are interested I can describe the task in more detail. All I can say is it works!
Sincerely,
Lee
S/V Loki, CD25D
A smart regulator becomes essential if you, like us, have two battery banks, one with two hugh capacity deep discharge batteries for the house electric and another with a single starting battery.
Joe
tgjournal@gestalt.org
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Bob B.
Re: Hand Cranking (was Re: 1, 2, All, Off Switch, Once and f
Stephen,
I had one of the old one cylinder Yanmars which are very simple engines. To crank start it, I would just pull the decompression knob (actually an acrobatic manuver that required placing my foot over the engine to hold the decompression lever since the cable had broken) , turn the hand crank about a dozen turns and then release the decompression knob. Make sure that the throttle is on in the start position. I have never had any problem before or after a major overhaul of the engine. You can use starting fluid but I would caution against this. Engines seem to get dependent on this and it dries out the cylinders causing excess wear (That is what the mechanics told me.) Once started, I operate it like normal. You may want to make sure that your electrical switch is in the 1,2 or all position so that the alternator will not fry as the engine begins to produce a charge.
Good luck with it. If you have any questions just ask or email.
Bob B "Oblivion"
BundyR@aol.com
BundyR@aol.com
I had one of the old one cylinder Yanmars which are very simple engines. To crank start it, I would just pull the decompression knob (actually an acrobatic manuver that required placing my foot over the engine to hold the decompression lever since the cable had broken) , turn the hand crank about a dozen turns and then release the decompression knob. Make sure that the throttle is on in the start position. I have never had any problem before or after a major overhaul of the engine. You can use starting fluid but I would caution against this. Engines seem to get dependent on this and it dries out the cylinders causing excess wear (That is what the mechanics told me.) Once started, I operate it like normal. You may want to make sure that your electrical switch is in the 1,2 or all position so that the alternator will not fry as the engine begins to produce a charge.
Good luck with it. If you have any questions just ask or email.
Bob B "Oblivion"
BundyR@aol.com
Stephen wrote: The manual for my CD22D says that starting by hand is difficult and they "recommend against it." I take it by your comment that it is not so tricky. Is that the case?
Stephen
BundyR@aol.com
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Bill
Re: Hand Cranking (was Re: 1, 2, All, Off Switch, Once and f
bob
Are the hand cranks a part obtainable from a Yanmar dealer? Where does one get the crank?
Bill
S/V Rhapsody
willie@clnk.com
Are the hand cranks a part obtainable from a Yanmar dealer? Where does one get the crank?
Bill
S/V Rhapsody
Bob B. wrote: Stephen,
I had one of the old one cylinder Yanmars which are very simple engines. To crank start it, I would just pull the decompression knob (actually an acrobatic manuver that required placing my foot over the engine to hold the decompression lever since the cable had broken) , turn the hand crank about a dozen turns and then release the decompression knob. Make sure that the throttle is on in the start position. I have never had any problem before or after a major overhaul of the engine. You can use starting fluid but I would caution against this. Engines seem to get dependent on this and it dries out the cylinders causing excess wear (That is what the mechanics told me.) Once started, I operate it like normal. You may want to make sure that your electrical switch is in the 1,2 or all position so that the alternator will not fry as the engine begins to produce a charge.
Good luck with it. If you have any questions just ask or email.
Bob B "Oblivion"
BundyR@aol.comStephen wrote: The manual for my CD22D says that starting by hand is difficult and they "recommend against it." I take it by your comment that it is not so tricky. Is that the case?
Stephen
willie@clnk.com
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Bob B.
Re: Hand Cranking (was Re: 1, 2, All, Off Switch, Once and f
Bill,
The hand crank that we had was with the boat. Check around in hidden compartments. We usually kept ours tucked away but accessible. If you don't have one I remember seeing it as a part in the Yanmar parts catalog for our engine. Check this or call Yanmar. I am not sure of their number but you should be able to find it from a mechanic's shop or the mechanic can order it for you.
Your engine should have a crank post comming out from the front of the engine onto which the crank will fit. Ours went clockwise.
I know of one marina/boat yard that can order Yanmar parts along the NC coast that has ordered parts for us. If you can't find it in your area, I can give them a call.
Bob B. "Oblivion"
BundyR@aol.com
BundyR@aol.com
The hand crank that we had was with the boat. Check around in hidden compartments. We usually kept ours tucked away but accessible. If you don't have one I remember seeing it as a part in the Yanmar parts catalog for our engine. Check this or call Yanmar. I am not sure of their number but you should be able to find it from a mechanic's shop or the mechanic can order it for you.
Your engine should have a crank post comming out from the front of the engine onto which the crank will fit. Ours went clockwise.
I know of one marina/boat yard that can order Yanmar parts along the NC coast that has ordered parts for us. If you can't find it in your area, I can give them a call.
Bob B. "Oblivion"
BundyR@aol.com
Bill wrote: bob
Are the hand cranks a part obtainable from a Yanmar dealer? Where does one get the crank?
Bill
S/V Rhapsody
Bob B. wrote: Bob B "Oblivion"
BundyR@aol.comStephen wrote: The manual for my CD22D says that starting by hand is difficult and they "recommend against it." I take it by your comment that it is not so tricky. Is that the case?
Stephen
BundyR@aol.com
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Russ Campbell
Re: Hand Cranking (was Re: 1, 2, All, Off Switch, Once and f
Bill, here is a copy of an e-mail I got a while ago which has the part numbers for a handcrank. I contacted Oldport Marine in MAine and they have them. I think they are around $40.
Russ
Subject: Re: handcrank for Yanmar
From: ctransit@aol.com (Ctransit)
Date: 31 Mar 1996 23:06:11 -0500
Message-ID: <4jnknk$b14@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
Don Chambers:
The parts you need are listed in my parts manual as follows:
Hand crank: 128170-76790
Starting pin: 124070-14760
M5 X 10 Bolt: 26450-050102
The crank drives the pin that goes across the end of the camshaft. The
bolt threads through the end of the camshaft to retain the pin. I bought
these parts in the US for my 3GMDF and have used the crank to start the
engine by decompressing all cylinders and having another person compress
one cylinder when I have the engine turning. Check out the part numbers.
camroll@togewther.net
Russ
Subject: Re: handcrank for Yanmar
From: ctransit@aol.com (Ctransit)
Date: 31 Mar 1996 23:06:11 -0500
Message-ID: <4jnknk$b14@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
Don Chambers:
The parts you need are listed in my parts manual as follows:
Hand crank: 128170-76790
Starting pin: 124070-14760
M5 X 10 Bolt: 26450-050102
The crank drives the pin that goes across the end of the camshaft. The
bolt threads through the end of the camshaft to retain the pin. I bought
these parts in the US for my 3GMDF and have used the crank to start the
engine by decompressing all cylinders and having another person compress
one cylinder when I have the engine turning. Check out the part numbers.
Bill wrote: bob
Are the hand cranks a part obtainable from a Yanmar dealer? Where does one get the crank?
Bill
S/V Rhapsody
Bob B. wrote: Stephen,
I had one of the old one cylinder Yanmars which are very simple engines. To crank start it, I would just pull the decompression knob (actually an acrobatic manuver that required placing my foot over the engine to hold the decompression lever since the cable had broken) , turn the hand crank about a dozen turns and then release the decompression knob. Make sure that the throttle is on in the start position. I have never had any problem before or after a major overhaul of the engine. You can use starting fluid but I would caution against this. Engines seem to get dependent on this and it dries out the cylinders causing excess wear (That is what the mechanics told me.) Once started, I operate it like normal. You may want to make sure that your electrical switch is in the 1,2 or all position so that the alternator will not fry as the engine begins to produce a charge.
Good luck with it. If you have any questions just ask or email.
Bob B "Oblivion"
BundyR@aol.comStephen wrote: The manual for my CD22D says that starting by hand is difficult and they "recommend against it." I take it by your comment that it is not so tricky. Is that the case?
Stephen
camroll@togewther.net