CD30 AC panel breaker wiring

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Glen

CD30 AC panel breaker wiring

Post by Glen »

Upon opening the AC panel in my '83 CD30c I noticed that the wiring configuration did not match that of the diagram in the (original) manual for the boat (same as the diagram found at http://www.gestalt.org/CAPEDORY.pdf on page 91). After checking other wiring diagrams from the online manuals, I found that my panel wiring (very closely) matches the diagram for the CD36 found at http://www.gestalt.org/CD36.pdf on page 58.

What puzzles me is the Green wire connected to the top Main Circuit Breaker. The other side of the breaker has a White wire attached. I've read that the White and Green wire should never be connected anywhere onboard.

Any clues why the "third" breaker with the Green and White wires attached was added?



glen@cambio.acomp.usf.edu
John R.

Re: CD30 AC panel breaker wiring

Post by John R. »

We have an '83 CD30 also, hull #271.
I'm not sure I understand what is going on with the variations I've come across in that vintage 30. Your description now makes a third version (and it sounds incorrect from your description). My 30 is not wired as the factory floating ground schematic indicates in the owners manual. I've been on several other CD's wired differently also.

The boat has always had the (green)AC safety ground bus bar connected to the boats common ground point. This is an ABYC recommended AC system. The safety ground and neutral are always isolated on board with the exception of the connections at the reverse polarity light if it is an incandescent light in the AC panel. If it is a neon light or has a momentary switch then they remain isolated. See previous extensive discussions on this point in the archives on this board. The neutral and ground join one another at shore or the power station or whatever point on shore they meet at in any given situation. No where else should they be tied together.

There should never be a circuit breaker, fuse or any other interrupting device in the safety ground circuit that could pose a safety hazard by disrupting the safety ground connection whenever AC shorepower is turned on. The same holds true for the floating AC style system. I took a quick look at that CD36 diagram and am not certain why they are showing a breaker on that safety ground and a neutral tied into it. That indicates to me that because the diagram is illustrating a non floating AC system that the neutral and ground connection on that safety ground circuit breaker will simply feed return current into the boats common ground which is certainly a bad scenario. Alleviate that green safety ground circuit breaker and the white neutral wire tied into it and the potential problem is then gone.

If indeed your CD30 is wired as the CD36 illustration then something seems amiss. Maybe someone else sees something I am missing in all this as it has been a long day and my observations may be a little off this evening.

You probably only have two circuit breakers on your CD30 AC panel. One for the hot leg (black) and one for the neutral leg (white). You should have a green safety ground connected to the safety ground buss bar somewhere and a green ground running to the boats common ground point (ABYC) or back to shore (Floating) or possibly both from that buss bar. Your safety ground and neutral should not be tied together on board the boat just as you point out until some point back on shore in the shorepower wiring system.

I will look at the Cd30 manual you've referenced also and see if there is anything different in it from my original manual.
Glen wrote: Upon opening the AC panel in my '83 CD30c I noticed that the wiring configuration did not match that of the diagram in the (original) manual for the boat (same as the diagram found at http://www.gestalt.org/CAPEDORY.pdf on page 91). After checking other wiring diagrams from the online manuals, I found that my panel wiring (very closely) matches the diagram for the CD36 found at http://www.gestalt.org/CD36.pdf on page 58.

What puzzles me is the Green wire connected to the top Main Circuit Breaker. The other side of the breaker has a White wire attached. I've read that the White and Green wire should never be connected anywhere onboard.

Any clues why the "third" breaker with the Green and White wires attached was added?
John R.

Continued........

Post by John R. »

After downloading and looking over the AC schematic from the CD30 online owners manual you reference I have found it is quite different than my original CD30 owners manual.

Like I said in the previous post my '83 CD30 is wired to ABYC standards with the green safety AC ground connected to the ships common ground point (same as what is shown in the online manual you indicate). My owners manual does not show that particular wiring, the manual illustrates a *floating AC system*. The online manual you reference depicts the ABYC system which is how my CD30 and many other CD's are wired. Now, from many postings on this board there is complete evidence that the CD30 has come from the factory with two different AC systems. I have also noted variations on other models as well so this doesn't just apply to the CD30's. Some are the ABYC type systems as illustrated in the online owners manual you referenced in your post and others are the floating AC systems as I drawn in my owners manual schematic (yet the actual boat was wired as the ABYC system, go figure?)

In essence, before anyone messes around with their AC wiring it would heed them to make certain they know how to recognize which system is in their boat. Here is a simple summary for a CD30:

Floating System:
The green AC safety ground is only wired back to shore and not to the vessels common ground point.

ABYC System:
The green AC safety ground is wired to the vessels common ground point and may also be wired to shore in some cases.

Those two different systems were installed on the CD30. Which years or hull #'s have which particular system I surely do not know.

Obviously Cape Dory did not have electrical standardization instituted during CD30 production runs and made distinct changes from time to time. This comes down to an owner be aware situation. Perhaps this occured because the AC system was an option on the boat.

I am not aware of any vessels having been equipped with AC ground isolators from the factory as standard equipment so they are not relevant to this outline. Any vessel equipped with a ground isolator should be examined to be sure any and all after market wiring was done correctly.
We have an '83 CD30 also, hull #271.
John R. wrote: I'm not sure I understand what is going on with the variations I've come across in that vintage 30. Your description now makes a third version (and it sounds incorrect from your description). My 30 is not wired as the factory floating ground schematic indicates in the owners manual. I've been on several other CD's wired differently also.

The boat has always had the (green)AC safety ground bus bar connected to the boats common ground point. This is an ABYC recommended AC system. The safety ground and neutral are always isolated on board with the exception of the connections at the reverse polarity light if it is an incandescent light in the AC panel. If it is a neon light or has a momentary switch then they remain isolated. See previous extensive discussions on this point in the archives on this board. The neutral and ground join one another at shore or the power station or whatever point on shore they meet at in any given situation. No where else should they be tied together.

There should never be a circuit breaker, fuse or any other interrupting device in the safety ground circuit that could pose a safety hazard by disrupting the safety ground connection whenever AC shorepower is turned on. The same holds true for the floating AC style system. I took a quick look at that CD36 diagram and am not certain why they are showing a breaker on that safety ground and a neutral tied into it. That indicates to me that because the diagram is illustrating a non floating AC system that the neutral and ground connection on that safety ground circuit breaker will simply feed return current into the boats common ground which is certainly a bad scenario. Alleviate that green safety ground circuit breaker and the white neutral wire tied into it and the potential problem is then gone.

If indeed your CD30 is wired as the CD36 illustration then something seems amiss. Maybe someone else sees something I am missing in all this as it has been a long day and my observations may be a little off this evening.

You probably only have two circuit breakers on your CD30 AC panel. One for the hot leg (black) and one for the neutral leg (white). You should have a green safety ground connected to the safety ground buss bar somewhere and a green ground running to the boats common ground point (ABYC) or back to shore (Floating) or possibly both from that buss bar. Your safety ground and neutral should not be tied together on board the boat just as you point out until some point back on shore in the shorepower wiring system.

I will look at the Cd30 manual you've referenced also and see if there is anything different in it from my original manual.
Glen wrote: Upon opening the AC panel in my '83 CD30c I noticed that the wiring configuration did not match that of the diagram in the (original) manual for the boat (same as the diagram found at http://www.gestalt.org/CAPEDORY.pdf on page 91). After checking other wiring diagrams from the online manuals, I found that my panel wiring (very closely) matches the diagram for the CD36 found at http://www.gestalt.org/CD36.pdf on page 58.

What puzzles me is the Green wire connected to the top Main Circuit Breaker. The other side of the breaker has a White wire attached. I've read that the White and Green wire should never be connected anywhere onboard.

Any clues why the "third" breaker with the Green and White wires attached was added?
Glen

Re: CD30 AC panel breaker wiring

Post by Glen »

Sir,

Thank you for your comments. It really miffs me when the documentation doesn't match the implementation. The paperwork I have seems to indicate that shore power may have been a dealer added option. Perhaps this may explain some of the different wiring schemes that you report.

My wiring is very similar to the CD36 diagram. However, it does show a Green wire to DC Common Ground that was not found on my boat. Looking at the back of the panel I see that the main power switch is connected to what appears to be 3 breakers. My concern being the top breaker which seems to connect the Green and White wires (as shown in the CD36 diagram). In fact, testing with a multimeter reveals continuity when the main switch is in the "on" position.

Would it be a common practice to connect the Green and White wires in a landside circuit (residence, etc.)?

The prospect of dissappearing thu hulls freaks me out only slightly less than the prospect of missing the step between the boat and the dock and frying my butt.

Looks like this one is going to take a bit of research...and most likely a house call.



glen@cambio.acomp.usf.edu
John R.

Re: CD30 AC panel breaker wiring

Post by John R. »

Glen,

Don't be overly cocerned about the boat wiring not matching the owners manual schematic you have. It is not especially surprising to see changes made in production methods compared to preproduction manufacturer documentation. The problem is that care is not taken to make changes or updates to documentation before a boat is delivered. Some of this is due to unattentive manufacturers and some of it is due to irresponsible dealers. Like I said in a earlier post in this thread it seems Cape Dory was not consistent with its electrical production standards in the CD30 for certain. Who knows what the situation is with other models. I would imagine similar discrepencies have also been made.

I'm not sure what papers you may have that would indicate a dealer installed AC system. I regularly serviced a CD charter fleet back in the 1980's that was run by a CD dealer here in Florida and they never installed an AC system. Optional systems were installed by CD themselves aside from things like VHF's, instrumentation, special custom gear and other basic aftermarket equipment.

Usually any wiring changes in a boat such as a CD or other production boat would be instructed by a production change memo from engineering and it would usually indicate what hull number the change would be implemented with. It wouldn't just be a random change unless some special equipment like a genset or some other item was a selected option on a special order boat.

If upon inspection you determine your actual boat (not the owners manual) does not have the green AC safety ground wire connected to your boats common ground point then what you have is a *floating AC system* and it does not meet current ABYC electrical standards.

If your panel has as you say a "main switch" connected to three breakers then I am very unsure of what you are describing because I have never seen a CD30 with anything more than two circuit breakers with the switch levers pinned together so when you switch the AC circuit on or off both the hot and neutral circuits are controlled together and at the exact same time.

You say it "appears to be 3 breakers", what do you mean by that?

The AC green safety wire and the white neutral wire in a house are connected together at the service panel ONLY. Don't confuse that with boat wiring. Never use household AC wiring practices on a boat as far as the white neutral and green safety ground are concerned in so far as connecting them together at a specific point. In a boat the only place a white neutral and a green safety should connect together is at shore!

You need to keep your AC neutral and safety ground isolated from one another on the boat. It makes no difference if your AC system is a *floating AC system* or a *ABYC standards system*. The common denominator of both those systems is that never should the white neutral and the green safety ground be connected together on board a boat.

The only time this is not the case that I know of is if an isolation transformer is being used and ABYC wiring practices are incorporated into the isolation circuit for safety concerns. That type of isolation AC circuit system gets a little complicated and doesn't apply to your situation.

I have a pic somewhere of a typical CD30 AC panel that has the two circuit breakers as the main switch that controls the neutral and hot AC legs. If I find them I will email the pictures to you for your reference. Good luck with your system.





Glen wrote: Sir,

Thank you for your comments. It really miffs me when the documentation doesn't match the implementation. The paperwork I have seems to indicate that shore power may have been a dealer added option. Perhaps this may explain some of the different wiring schemes that you report.

My wiring is very similar to the CD36 diagram. However, it does show a Green wire to DC Common Ground that was not found on my boat. Looking at the back of the panel I see that the main power switch is connected to what appears to be 3 breakers. My concern being the top breaker which seems to connect the Green and White wires (as shown in the CD36 diagram). In fact, testing with a multimeter reveals continuity when the main switch is in the "on" position.

Would it be a common practice to connect the Green and White wires in a landside circuit (residence, etc.)?

The prospect of dissappearing thu hulls freaks me out only slightly less than the prospect of missing the step between the boat and the dock and frying my butt.

Looks like this one is going to take a bit of research...and most likely a house call.
Glen

Re: CD30 AC panel breaker wiring

Post by Glen »

The notion of the dealer installing the AC system was a (most likely erroneous) assumption based on the options ordered as stated on the original Purchase Agreement from the dealer.

Definately a "floating AC system", but the wire could have been removed by the PO. All of the Cape Dory wiring diagrams I have seen show a Green wire to DC ground.

I am familiar with the type of AC Main Breaker Switch that you describe. Mine differs in that on the front of the panel there is only one switch (not multiples joined together). Also, when viewed from the rear of the panel, it looks like 3 breakers mounted together...if you were to first view it from the rear, you would expect to see 3 switches when you turned the panel around. The reason I stated that it "appears to be 3 breakers" is because I ain't never seen nothin' like it either...I mean, just having one switch and all...but the diagram refers to the unit as the "Main Circuit Breakers". If I can get pics I'll send them to you.

Looking at the CD36 online manual (http://www.gestalt.org/CD36.pdf on page 58) you can see the 3 breakers in diagram form. You may also note that the top breaker has a Green wire on the left pole and a White wire on the right pole (jumpered from the right pole on the middle breaker). This is the way my panel is wired. As we both agree, the Green and White wires should not be joined on the boat circuit. None of the texts on boat AC systems that I have seen show any diagrams with the Green and White wires connected on the main breakers (or anywhere else in the circuits). I am just wondering what purpose the top breaker in the CD36 diagram serves.



glen@cambio.acomp.usf.edu
John R.

Re: CD30 AC panel breaker wiring

Post by John R. »

Glen,

More than likely the optional AC system indicated on your original PA was installed by the factory. Especially considering that a similar system is indicated on the CD36 schematic you reference.

That CD36 schematic is not a *floating AC system*. It has the AC safety ground connected to the vessel common ground point.

I still do not know why they are showing the neutral jumpered to the safety ground and why there is a circuit breaker in the safety ground. Only thing I can think of is they simply wanted to be able to completely disconnect the AC system from the vessel without having to disconnect the shore cord. Even at that the reason for the neutral jumpered to the ground breaker is puzzling. With the ground breaker in the on position that would simply pump returning current into the vessel common ground point, not good at all.

I understand the switch you now describe. I have seen them rarely on a couple older craft.

I can think of no reason why you would want to maintain the system panel as it currently is wired in your boat if indeed it is like the CD36 illustration you reference. I would definitely make three changes to bring it in compliance with ABYC standards:

1) Eliminate the safety ground circuit breaker, absolutely nothing should interrupt an AC safety ground connection.

2) Eliminate the white neutral jumper wire to the safety ground circuit breaker that is shown in the CD36 schematic.

3) Maintain an uniterrupted AC green safety wire to the vessel common ground point bypassing that safety ground circuit breaker shown in the CD36 diagram.

Those three changes would bring your AC system in line with ABYC. Your system would no longer be a *floating AC system* and it's safety would no longer be dependant on the integrity of the shorepower cable and it's connectors and the ground connection within the shore hook up box.

Good Luck

Glen wrote: The notion of the dealer installing the AC system was a (most likely erroneous) assumption based on the options ordered as stated on the original Purchase Agreement from the dealer.

Definately a "floating AC system", but the wire could have been removed by the PO. All of the Cape Dory wiring diagrams I have seen show a Green wire to DC ground.

I am familiar with the type of AC Main Breaker Switch that you describe. Mine differs in that on the front of the panel there is only one switch (not multiples joined together). Also, when viewed from the rear of the panel, it looks like 3 breakers mounted together...if you were to first view it from the rear, you would expect to see 3 switches when you turned the panel around. The reason I stated that it "appears to be 3 breakers" is because I ain't never seen nothin' like it either...I mean, just having one switch and all...but the diagram refers to the unit as the "Main Circuit Breakers". If I can get pics I'll send them to you.

Looking at the CD36 online manual (http://www.gestalt.org/CD36.pdf on page 58) you can see the 3 breakers in diagram form. You may also note that the top breaker has a Green wire on the left pole and a White wire on the right pole (jumpered from the right pole on the middle breaker). This is the way my panel is wired. As we both agree, the Green and White wires should not be joined on the boat circuit. None of the texts on boat AC systems that I have seen show any diagrams with the Green and White wires connected on the main breakers (or anywhere else in the circuits). I am just wondering what purpose the top breaker in the CD36 diagram serves.
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