Beta Marine 13.5 h.p. diesel

[Andy Denmark]

I am looking at a CD-30 that has been recently repowered with a Beta Marine 13.5 h.p. diesel through the standard V-drive system. I know nothing about this engine except that it is considerably smaller than the Volvo MD-7/A and therefore considerably more accessible. Any information on Beta is appreciated even if not in a Cape Dory installation. Torque curve would be outstanding! Any suggestions as to placement of an LPG tank on a CD-30 would also be helpful.

Thanks for any help that may come my way.

Andy Denmark
CD-27 "Rhiannon"
Oriental, NC



trekker@coastalnet.com

[Ken Coit]

Andy,

Beta Marine NC is located in Minnesott Beach, down the road from you. Their web site has a torque curve for the BZ-482 posted. See the link below. Apparently the engines are Kubota based. They ought to have a good parts supply in farming communities.

Good luck!

Ken Coit

I am looking at a CD-30 that has been recently repowered with a Beta Marine 13.5 h.p. diesel through the standard V-drive system. I know nothing about this engine except that it is considerably smaller than the Volvo MD-7/A and therefore considerably more accessible. Any information on Beta is appreciated even if not in a Cape Dory installation. Torque curve would be outstanding! Any suggestions as to placement of an LPG tank on a CD-30 would also be helpful.

Thanks for any help that may come my way.

Andy Denmark
CD-27 "Rhiannon"
Oriental, NC

parfait@nc.rr.com

[Andy Denmark]

Andy,

Beta Marine NC is located in Minnesott Beach, down the road from you. Their web site has a torque curve for the BZ-482 posted. See the link below. Apparently the engines are Kubota based. They ought to have a good parts supply in farming communities.

Good luck!

Ken Coit

Ken

Right you are. Talked with both Stanley (distributor) and Phillip at Pamlico Diesel (who did the installation) and got all the necessary info. Also downloaded the torque specs from the website. Almost identical to the MD-7/A but turns a bit faster. It's a nice installation, fresh water cooled, and less than 50 hours total as it was installed just this spring. I think the prop needs resizing (what prop doesn't) and everything will be up to snuff.

Sorry to have missed you this weekend. I had a Dark & Stormy in your memory, though. M & M's was not crowded as everyone was out sailing. Guess the summer weather was just too nice to stay tied to the dock. Can you believe 10 days with the heat off at the house and having to use A/C in the car! 75-80 days and down to 50 at night. Great boating wx, for sure. For you guys who have to haul out for the winter, eat your hearts out!

Andy Denmark
CD-27 #270 "Rhiannon"
Oriental, NC



trekker@coastalnet.com

[Ken Coit]

Andy,

Good job!

Ken
also in warm NC
now if they will just dredge that channel....

Andy,

Beta Marine NC is located in Minnesott Beach, down the road from you. Their web site has a torque curve for the BZ-482 posted. See the link below. Apparently the engines are Kubota based. They ought to have a good parts supply in farming communities.

Good luck!

Ken Coit

Ken

Right you are. Talked with both Stanley (distributor) and Phillip at Pamlico Diesel (who did the installation) and got all the necessary info. Also downloaded the torque specs from the website. Almost identical to the MD-7/A but turns a bit faster. It's a nice installation, fresh water cooled, and less than 50 hours total as it was installed just this spring. I think the prop needs resizing (what prop doesn't) and everything will be up to snuff.

Sorry to have missed you this weekend. I had a Dark & Stormy in your memory, though. M & M's was not crowded as everyone was out sailing. Guess the summer weather was just too nice to stay tied to the dock. Can you believe 10 days with the heat off at the house and having to use A/C in the car! 75-80 days and down to 50 at night. Great boating wx, for sure. For you guys who have to haul out for the winter, eat your hearts out!

Andy Denmark
CD-27 #270 "Rhiannon"
Oriental, NC

parfait@nc.rr.com

[John Nuttall]

Mott Blair's old CD30 "Two Duck" had a 30 hp dropped in when she got repowered....... she ran the 1/4 mile like "Big Daddy" Don G. and could back down from full ahead to dead stop in her own length !!!

Maybe he'll jump in here and tell us a funny story !!!

Hey Andy, Dark & Stormy's will be served up Sat after the Christmas Parade. stop by my slip.
Mott, see you at the parade.
Ken, are you coming up to Oriental for the parade? Be sure to hail us!

John
s/v Aimless
now out of the shed and in the slipway ready to resplash after much beautification - and redefining the word Boat ( the $$$$ hole thing.... ) ouch !



aimless@nc.rr.com

[Warren Kaplan]

I am looking at a CD-30 that has been recently repowered with a Beta Marine 13.5 h.p. diesel through the standard V-drive system. I know nothing about this engine except that it is considerably smaller than the Volvo MD-7/A and therefore considerably more accessible. Any information on Beta is appreciated even if not in a Cape Dory installation. Torque curve would be outstanding! Any suggestions as to placement of an LPG tank on a CD-30 would also be helpful.

Thanks for any help that may come my way.

Andy Denmark
CD-27 "Rhiannon"
Oriental, NC

Hi Andy,
I don't profess to know much about engines but I've read in numerous articles written by marine surveyors and the like that the "rule of thumb" for engine size for a sailboat is in the range of 2 horsepower per 1000 pounds of displacement. The CD30 displaces 10,000 pounds. I know that some engines of the same horsepower pack more "punch" than other engines but considering the rule of thumb would indicate an engine in the 20 HP range, don't you think a 13.5 HP engine is undersized?? I know that eventually I'd like to repower my CD27 and go from an 8HP Yanmar to an 18HP Yanmar. As you know, our CD27s displace 7500 pounds. I know the 13.5 engine is already in the boat, but do you think the boat is underpowered?? You said the boat was recently repowered. Do you know what engine they took out and did that engine have more HP than 13.5? Can you, or someone else, tell me why someone would put in a brand new engine that "appears" to be too small for the boat unless cost was the prevailing consideration? I think I must be missing something here. As I said...I've got a lot to learn about engines for boats. Hey! Its December 5th on Long Island and its supposed to hit 68 degrees just like you Carolina fellas have. Alot of good it'll do me though unless I want to take out my kayak!

Warren Kaplan
Sine Qua Non
CD27




Setsail728@aol.com

[Mark Yashinsky]

[Andy Denmark]

Hi Andy,
I don't profess to know much about engines but I've read in numerous articles written by marine surveyors and the like that the "rule of thumb" for engine size for a sailboat is in the range of 2 horsepower per 1000 pounds of displacement. The CD30 displaces 10,000 pounds. I know that some engines of the same horsepower pack more "punch" than other engines but considering the rule of thumb would indicate an engine in the 20 HP range, don't you think a 13.5 HP engine is undersized?? I know that eventually I'd like to repower my CD27 and go from an 8HP Yanmar to an 18HP Yanmar. As you know, our CD27s displace 7500 pounds. I know the 13.5 engine is already in the boat, but do you think the boat is underpowered?? You said the boat was recently repowered. Do you know what engine they took out and did that engine have more HP than 13.5? Can you, or someone else, tell me why someone would put in a brand new engine that "appears" to be too small for the boat unless cost was the prevailing consideration? I think I must be missing something here. As I said...I've got a lot to learn about engines for boats. Hey! Its December 5th on Long Island and its supposed to hit 68 degrees just like you Carolina fellas have. Alot of good it'll do me though unless I want to take out my kayak!

Warren Kaplan
Sine Qua Non
CD27

Hi Warren,

"The optimist sees the glass as half full, the pessimist sees the glass as half empty, the engineer sees the glass as twice as big as it needs to be."

I have no control of the size of the engine as it is already in the boat. This is a CD-30/K I sold in 1978 to a man who put many miles under her keel -- Florida, Chesapeake Bay, Bahamas, Bermuda, New England -- all with the MD-7/A (13 h.p.) that was factory installed. Obviously that was all the power he needed. If I were repowering this boat I might have opted for the 20h.p. Beta (a Kubota 3-cyl block) but there's no choice now.

In talking to the engine people who repowered this boat, they pulled the Volvo for a complete rebuild. The estimated cost of the parts and labor nearly exceeded the cost of a new Betamarine installation. He said the difference was less than a thousand dollars. With the new engine, there was a full warranty and superb local service. Sounded like a cost effective move to me. Value of the boat is increased correspondingly.

While the tables and nomograms indicate a higher h.p. engine, one cannot simply look at the numbers and make a choice based on that. It is important to look at the entire system and all the things that affect that system. With the CD-27 (and any of the Cape Dorys up to 30') the problem is coupling that h.p. to the water. Of course, that is done through the propeller. Looking again at nomograms (or using Michigan's program) it is easy to see that the optimum propeller for the Westerbeke 13 (the engine in my boat) is 13" diameter. Pitch is immediately irrelevant now because the aperture prevents any propeller larger than 12" diameter being installed. While I can barely fit a 13" prop in the CD-27 aperture the tip losses (and resulting inefficiencies) would render the prop grossly inadequate. These realities tell me that whatever I do for a propeller is now a compromise from the "optimum." Bottom line: it soesn't matter how much extra horsepower one has, if it cannot be transmitted to the water then it is wasted.

Personally, I have found the 13 h.p. Westerbeke to be just about right for the CD-27. The 8 h.p. Yanmar I consider to be too little power. But going higher than 13 h.p. is fruitless. There's simply no way to couple that power to the water unless you enlarge the aperture and put on a larger diameter prop. Then sailing qualities are drastically compromised by doing this.

I think of "auxilliary engine" as just that; a powerplant that is secondary to the primary source of propulsion. Sails are the primary source. Alberg's boats are optimized to be sailing craft, not power boats. The compromises that must be made in his boats are made on the power side of the equation. Personally, I am thankful for that and thankful that Cape Dory, as long as they stayed with this philosophy, commanded the lion's share of that market niche. Because of that, we have all these nice boats to dote over!

Just some thoughts at the beginning of another beautiful day (supposed to be 80+).

Andy Denmark
CD-27 "Rhiannon"
Oriental, NC



trekker@coastalnet.com

[Clay Stalker]

Hi Andy,
I don't profess to know much about engines but I've read in numerous articles written by marine surveyors and the like that the "rule of thumb" for engine size for a sailboat is in the range of 2 horsepower per 1000 pounds of displacement. The CD30 displaces 10,000 pounds. I know that some engines of the same horsepower pack more "punch" than other engines but considering the rule of thumb would indicate an engine in the 20 HP range, don't you think a 13.5 HP engine is undersized?? I know that eventually I'd like to repower my CD27 and go from an 8HP Yanmar to an 18HP Yanmar. As you know, our CD27s displace 7500 pounds. I know the 13.5 engine is already in the boat, but do you think the boat is underpowered?? You said the boat was recently repowered. Do you know what engine they took out and did that engine have more HP than 13.5? Can you, or someone else, tell me why someone would put in a brand new engine that "appears" to be too small for the boat unless cost was the prevailing consideration? I think I must be missing something here. As I said...I've got a lot to learn about engines for boats. Hey! Its December 5th on Long Island and its supposed to hit 68 degrees just like you Carolina fellas have. Alot of good it'll do me though unless I want to take out my kayak!

Warren Kaplan
Sine Qua Non
CD27

Hi Warren,

"The optimist sees the glass as half full, the pessimist sees the glass as half empty, the engineer sees the glass as twice as big as it needs to be."

I have no control of the size of the engine as it is already in the boat. This is a CD-30/K I sold in 1978 to a man who put many miles under her keel -- Florida, Chesapeake Bay, Bahamas, Bermuda, New England -- all with the MD-7/A (13 h.p.) that was factory installed. Obviously that was all the power he needed. If I were repowering this boat I might have opted for the 20h.p. Beta (a Kubota 3-cyl block) but there's no choice now.

In talking to the engine people who repowered this boat, they pulled the Volvo for a complete rebuild. The estimated cost of the parts and labor nearly exceeded the cost of a new Betamarine installation. He said the difference was less than a thousand dollars. With the new engine, there was a full warranty and superb local service. Sounded like a cost effective move to me. Value of the boat is increased correspondingly.

While the tables and nomograms indicate a higher h.p. engine, one cannot simply look at the numbers and make a choice based on that. It is important to look at the entire system and all the things that affect that system. With the CD-27 (and any of the Cape Dorys up to 30') the problem is coupling that h.p. to the water. Of course, that is done through the propeller. Looking again at nomograms (or using Michigan's program) it is easy to see that the optimum propeller for the Westerbeke 13 (the engine in my boat) is 13" diameter. Pitch is immediately irrelevant now because the aperture prevents any propeller larger than 12" diameter being installed. While I can barely fit a 13" prop in the CD-27 aperture the tip losses (and resulting inefficiencies) would render the prop grossly inadequate. These realities tell me that whatever I do for a propeller is now a compromise from the "optimum." Bottom line: it soesn't matter how much extra horsepower one has, if it cannot be transmitted to the water then it is wasted.

Personally, I have found the 13 h.p. Westerbeke to be just about right for the CD-27. The 8 h.p. Yanmar I consider to be too little power. But going higher than 13 h.p. is fruitless. There's simply no way to couple that power to the water unless you enlarge the aperture and put on a larger diameter prop. Then sailing qualities are drastically compromised by doing this.

I think of "auxilliary engine" as just that; a powerplant that is secondary to the primary source of propulsion. Sails are the primary source. Alberg's boats are optimized to be sailing craft, not power boats. The compromises that must be made in his boats are made on the power side of the equation. Personally, I am thankful for that and thankful that Cape Dory, as long as they stayed with this philosophy, commanded the lion's share of that market niche. Because of that, we have all these nice boats to dote over!

Just some thoughts at the beginning of another beautiful day (supposed to be 80+).

Andy Denmark
CD-27 "Rhiannon"
Oriental, NC

I have a Yanmar 2GM 13 HP in my CD27. This is a bit more than adequate, but I wouldn't want to punch into a headwind or a choppy sea with much less. While heading to Block Island this summer, I was motoring directly into a 12 knot wind, 3 foot chop, and varing tide and I could only get 4 knots @ 2600 rpm...this with a 3 bladed bronze prop. While I was somewhat satisfied with this, I can usually get 5.5 knots pretty easily under most conditions. I suspect that a 13HP would be the absolute smallest I would want in a 30...However, a new 13.5 Beta should be adequate....just my 2 cents...

Clay Stalker



cstalker@cheshire.net

[Warren Kaplan]

Andy,
Thanks for the "graduate dissertation" on the engine question. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link and I guess the weak link in the engine set up is the small propeller apeture limiting the prop diameter to 12". But I agree, CDs are sailing boats first and foremost and anything that would compromise that must be considered very carefully!
I see along with being a delivery captain you are a philosopher.
"The optimist sees the glass as half full, the pessimist sees the glass as half empty, the engineer sees the glass as twice as big as it needs to be." I guess it could be said another way.."There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." Said by "thee" English language genius, W. Shakespeare, Hamlet.

Thanks for the explanation. It helps with my future repowering plans!

Warren



Setsail728@aol.com

[david low]

I have a 21 year old Volvo MD7A and expect that I will need to do something with it while I still own the boat. I generally would lean toward repowering and the physical size of the Kubota seems to be an asset.

Obviously an engine that produces peak horsepower at 3,000 rpm will be physically smaller than one that I expect peaks at about 2,500 but what about the drivetrain? Does anyone know if there would be issues with the cutlass bearing, etc?

Dave



davidlow@erols.com

[Andy Denmark]

I have a 21 year old Volvo MD7A and expect that I will need to do something with it while I still own the boat. I generally would lean toward repowering and the physical size of the Kubota seems to be an asset.

Obviously an engine that produces peak horsepower at 3,000 rpm will be physically smaller than one that I expect peaks at about 2,500 but what about the drivetrain? Does anyone know if there would be issues with the cutlass bearing, etc?

David,

From initial inspection the engine looks like it fit the existing vee-drive and mounted on the same engine beds. I can't tell if the vee drive is the original or a newer one. This said, the cutless, stuffing box, etc. should line up fine.The only problem I saw was the location of the dipstick -- all the way aft (with the engine in "backwards" in the 30). I'm compulsive about checking oil and that would really be a pain. Couldn't be worse than the Westerbeke 13 in Rhiannon, though, which must be done by braille. I'd take a good look at the 20 h.p. for this boat for sure.

I can put you directly in touch (by phone) with the man who did this work if you get to that point.

Hope this helps,

Andy





trekker@coastalnet.com

[Dave Perry]

Regarding an LPG system in a 30, depending on the boats age (later 30's having a longer cockpit floor aft of the pedistal wheel) I have seen several very well done deck box/helm seat with tanks in side. High enough to vent overboard, and propane lines can be run through the cockpit locker. By the way, I have a 2 burner alcohol Wilcox Crittenden stove that I bought at a particular Cape Dory dealership in Oriental, NC about 1976 that still works great on my Cape 27!



RMC@clinic.net

[Andy Denmark]

Regarding an LPG system in a 30, depending on the boats age (later 30's having a longer cockpit floor aft of the pedistal wheel) I have seen several very well done deck box/helm seat with tanks in side. High enough to vent overboard, and propane lines can be run through the cockpit locker. By the way, I have a 2 burner alcohol Wilcox Crittenden stove that I bought at a particular Cape Dory dealership in Oriental, NC about 1976 that still works great on my Cape 27!

Hey, Dave!

Thanks for the input. The 30 in question is an older ketch (#103, I think), and has the original Hillerange 3-burner stove with oven. That would be replaced with something else but LPG for sure. I'm looking at a self-contained system called Mar-Gas that is CG approved and mounts inside a cockpit locker.

Yes, I remember that stove. One of several I found in the back of a warehouse in Beaufort when I first opened up the ship's store. It is a classic, for sure.

I think you would be amazed at what I've done to my CD-27. Sometime soon I'll put some pictures on the BBS. Might give you some ideas.

Oriental has changed so much - population of 900 people and 2700 sailboats (just about the right ratio). You wouldn't recognize the place. I've been back here since '89 and live out at the mouth of the river on Broad Creek (just off the ICW). Hope you can stop by sometime 'cause I've got a cold one with your name on it.

Andy Denmark
CD-27 "Rhiannon"
Oriental, NC



trekker@coastalnet.com