I guess it depends on how the wiring is set up, but in a "factory" wiring on a CD27, if the engine is running with the battery selector on 1, does the alternator charge both batteries or only the battery selected? Thanks
Hud
Battery charge1-2
Moderator: Jim Walsh
-
Mark Yashinsky
Re: Battery charge1-2
It does depend on "If someone has rewired" the chrging circuit or upgraded the charging circuit. The original wiring, the alternator feeds the main switch, then from there, back to which ever battery is selected. There have been many articles (West advisor, Balmar) about alternative setups for charging and starting circuits. Can get one into trouble, depending on your battery selection scheme.
-
Mike Greenberg
Re: Battery charge1-2
Your alternator will charge both batteries even though, let's say, only the "Engine Battery" is selected, as when you start the engine.
mikegre1@bellatlantic.net
mikegre1@bellatlantic.net
-
D. Stump, Hanalei
Re: Mike, I don't think so....
Mike,
If the main Off-1-2-All switch is in say 1, the alternator will ONLY charge Battery 1. Same as when you start her up, if the switch is in 1, only 1 will be used to start the engine.
I believe you can confirm this by checking the battery voltage with engine running and selected to 1. 1's voltage should be higher because it is being charged by the alternator.
All of the above applies only to the factory installation. Some people do all kinds of things with after market charging schemes.
Maybe our resident electrical engineer, Larry DeMers will get in on this.....
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei
If the main Off-1-2-All switch is in say 1, the alternator will ONLY charge Battery 1. Same as when you start her up, if the switch is in 1, only 1 will be used to start the engine.
I believe you can confirm this by checking the battery voltage with engine running and selected to 1. 1's voltage should be higher because it is being charged by the alternator.
All of the above applies only to the factory installation. Some people do all kinds of things with after market charging schemes.
Maybe our resident electrical engineer, Larry DeMers will get in on this.....
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei
-
Warren kaplan
Re: Mike, I don't think so....
Dave,D. Stump, Hanalei wrote: Mike,
If the main Off-1-2-All switch is in say 1, the alternator will ONLY charge Battery 1. Same as when you start her up, if the switch is in 1, only 1 will be used to start the engine.
I believe you can confirm this by checking the battery voltage with engine running and selected to 1. 1's voltage should be higher because it is being charged by the alternator.
All of the above applies only to the factory installation. Some people do all kinds of things with after market charging schemes.
Maybe our resident electrical engineer, Larry DeMers will get in on this.....
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei
I read somewhere that if you hooked a battery charger directly up to one battery and then put the main "Off-1-2-Both" switch to "Both", both batteries would charge. I believe the battery closest to the charging source would charge first, and then the other. I wonder if the battery switch was set to "Both" with the engine running, if both batteries would charge also. You're right. We'll have to wait for the "verdict" from Larry DeMers if he hasn't put his snowshoes on yet and set out early to make it to Lake Superior by the weekend. It was snowing this morning on Long Island when I was driving to work!
Setsail728@aol.com
-
Michael Heintz
Another charging question.........
Do most people "plug" into the dock, after a weekend crusing? Therby alowing the charger to run during the week? My charger plugs into the outlet in the galley, What happens when I leave the boat, with electrics pluged in at the dock and batery selector in the off position? Are my battries getting a charge? I would have to leave the shore power on and the outlet switch on as well.
Michael Heintz
s/v Machts Nichts
Mzenith@aol.com
Michael Heintz
s/v Machts Nichts
Mzenith@aol.com
-
Bob Loewenstein
Re: Mike, I don't think so....
I'll step in here. Factory installation is as you all have said: the battery switch means what it says. If 'both' is selected, the two batteries are in parallel. If 1 or 2 is selected, the other battery is left out of the circuit.Warren kaplan wrote: I read somewhere that if you hooked a battery charger directly up to one battery and then put the main "Off-1-2-Both" switch to "Both", both batteries would charge. I believe the battery closest to the charging source would charge first, and then the other. I wonder if the battery switch was set to "Both" with the engine running, if both batteries would charge also.
Now about charging. If both batteries are in parallel (the factory 'both' setting), then they are both being simulatenously charged by the alternator or charger. Batteries in parallel aren't charged first or second, they are charged by the current flowing to them which depends on the alternator/charger current and the wires the current travels through.
In the case of connecting the charger to one battery and selecting 'both', both batteries will be charged, but because of the amount of wire that the current must flow through to get to the farther battery, the current reaching that battery will be somewhat less than what arrives at the battery which is closer to the charger. This means that if both batteries were identical (for the sake of argument) and in identical charge states, then the closer battery would reach its fully charged state sooner than the farther battery. However, if the closer battery were, say, 75% charged and the farther were 95% charged, then it is very likely the farther battery would reach its fully charged state sooner than the nearer one.
Bob
rfl@yerkes.uchicago.edu
-
Bob Loewenstein
Re: Another charging question.........
Michael,
You say your charger plugs into the galley outlet. What kind of charger do you have? Is it a portable and do you connect the output wires to the battery itself? Assuming this, then the battery is charged regardless of the switch setting. If you have 'both' selected, then assuming factory wiring, the second battery is also charging.
Bob
rfl@yerkes.uchicago.edu
You say your charger plugs into the galley outlet. What kind of charger do you have? Is it a portable and do you connect the output wires to the battery itself? Assuming this, then the battery is charged regardless of the switch setting. If you have 'both' selected, then assuming factory wiring, the second battery is also charging.
Bob
rfl@yerkes.uchicago.edu
-
Warren Kaplan
Re: Mike, I don't think so....
Thanks Bob,Bob Loewenstein wrote:I'll step in here. Factory installation is as you all have said: the battery switch means what it says. If 'both' is selected, the two batteries are in parallel. If 1 or 2 is selected, the other battery is left out of the circuit.Warren kaplan wrote: I read somewhere that if you hooked a battery charger directly up to one battery and then put the main "Off-1-2-Both" switch to "Both", both batteries would charge. I believe the battery closest to the charging source would charge first, and then the other. I wonder if the battery switch was set to "Both" with the engine running, if both batteries would charge also.
Now about charging. If both batteries are in parallel (the factory 'both' setting), then they are both being simulatenously charged by the alternator or charger. Batteries in parallel aren't charged first or second, they are charged by the current flowing to them which depends on the alternator/charger current and the wires the current travels through.
In the case of connecting the charger to one battery and selecting 'both', both batteries will be charged, but because of the amount of wire that the current must flow through to get to the farther battery, the current reaching that battery will be somewhat less than what arrives at the battery which is closer to the charger. This means that if both batteries were identical (for the sake of argument) and in identical charge states, then the closer battery would reach its fully charged state sooner than the farther battery. However, if the closer battery were, say, 75% charged and the farther were 95% charged, then it is very likely the farther battery would reach its fully charged state sooner than the nearer one.
Bob
Let me ask you a further question. For the average daysailor, who has no elaborate charging mechanism other than the engine alternator, and really doesn't have much draw on the "house battery" would you recommend occasionally motoring around with the switch set to "both"...just to charge the batteries. It was recommended to me that if you have two batteries, with no real house loads that you should set the battery switch to #1 on odd days sailing and to #2 on even days sailing, to keep each battery charged. That's fine if the sailing calendar cooperates or if you keep a log of the dates you sailed so you know if you are out of balance. Can any harm be done by setting the switch to "both", starting the engine and leaving it there for the day while sailing/motoring maybe every 4th or 5th sail?
Warren
Setsail728@aol.com
-
D. Stump, Hanalei
Re: I have NEVER plugged in.........
Michael,
Hanalei relies soley on the alternator. If I see that a battery has really dropped voltage, I take it home and charge it for twelve hours to bring it back up. A little pain, but it doesn't happen often. I sail most weekends during the Spring, Summer and Fall, using the 1 on odd 2 on even day scheme Warren talks about below and haven't had a problem. Of course, I am meticulos about state of charge and particularly fluid levels in my batteries. A battery without fluid is like a sailing day without wind!!!!
The other thing is, I don't like leaving the vessel hooked to shore power all week. I see no reason to do it, and without being hooked up I don't have to worry about stray currents eating up my prop or any other problems.
Also, I agree with everything that the others below this post have said. Now we wait for Larry D.......
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei
Hanalei relies soley on the alternator. If I see that a battery has really dropped voltage, I take it home and charge it for twelve hours to bring it back up. A little pain, but it doesn't happen often. I sail most weekends during the Spring, Summer and Fall, using the 1 on odd 2 on even day scheme Warren talks about below and haven't had a problem. Of course, I am meticulos about state of charge and particularly fluid levels in my batteries. A battery without fluid is like a sailing day without wind!!!!
The other thing is, I don't like leaving the vessel hooked to shore power all week. I see no reason to do it, and without being hooked up I don't have to worry about stray currents eating up my prop or any other problems.
Also, I agree with everything that the others below this post have said. Now we wait for Larry D.......
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei
-
Mark Yashinsky
Give and Take
The batteries state of charge will be determined on the amount and length of load you put on them (how long you crank the engine and # of times, running stereos, lights, radar, VHF transmitting, SSB transmitting, etc) and the amoutn and length of time your recharge them (how long you run the engine, or have a charger hooked to them). You cannot keep taking w/o giving. Example, you run your car and use 2 gallons of gas yet you only put 1 gallon back in. How long can you keep doing this??? FYI, just finished upgrading Bill G's, CD27, Second Chance w/ dual output Balmar and rewire the primary battery circuits, as the short time motoring in and out of the marina and his like of music (stereo w/ amp) and the odd/even battery scheme cause one battery to get discharge and not get recharged for a long time. Now, BOTH batteries will be recharged regardless of the main switch and at a high rate (if needed, Balmar's smart regulator).
-
Mark Yashinsky
Schematic
Do you have the manuals (engine?) w/ the boat??? The Yanmar engine book was complete accurate, except for missing the main switch and second battery, on the wiring layout and wire color codes, until I rewired (See next entry). Pencil in the switch and 2nd battery and then follow the electron paths w/ the main in various positions to see what is going on. This is not rocket science unless one has retrofitted one into the stern of their boat, but thats another subject.
-
Dan H
Re: Battery - Yet another question?
My CD25 came with two batteries. The original water filled type is currently installed. The former owner purchased a gel battery but did not install it. I would like to use both. The wiring is only set up for the one. Can I use two different types together? What wiring modifications are required to add the additional battery? If anyone can point me to "factory wiring scheme", I am thinking that might be best.
djhhan@aol.com
djhhan@aol.com
-
Larry DeMers
Re: Battery - Yet another question?
Dan,
No, do not use a gel cell and a wet cell together, in any form, unless you for some reason have two separate chargers. You see, the top end voltage for a wet cell is different than that for a gel cell, and you r charger will try to obtain the highest voltage it can, based on it's design. This works so-so for wet cells, and not at all for gel cells.
What charger do you have, and is it a three stage charger? More than probably it is a ferro-resonant charger. If three stage, then the top voltage could be set for the gel cell, and then the wet cell would be undercharged. Or it could be set for the wet cell, and the gel cell will likely short out or be destroyed..possibly explode even (one of the warnings mentions this).
If the charger is a ferro-resonant charger, then only the wet cell will be mildly happy, as it takes a long time to get there with this charger, but it will eventually charge up to 14.6v or so, which exceeds the Do-Not-Exceed rating of the gel cells.
It's best to have a separate starting battery (typical truck starting battery..non-marine, and non-deep cycle) which is used ONLY for that purpose. Then add in a house bank..or two, as I have done. That bank should be sized to the boat, the load, the space available, charging source and type etc. This case would be a deep discharge cell..probably a group 27. They run around $45 every weekend at K-Mart. Realize that there is nothing magic about the "Marine" title when it comes to batteries..all you want are deep discharge cells. Separate these two banks with the 1-2-both-off switch, and then install a West Marine or Heart Interface Charge Combiner ahead of the two batteries, so that the charge is applied to both batteries until they become charged, then the combiner disconnects the two batteries from the charging buss. This runs around $140, and is the center of any charging system. All charge sources will be led through this device, be they solar, wind, thermalnuclear or "IT".
Cheers! and wondering how many figure out "IT"?
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 ~~Lake Superior~~~
demers@sgi.com
No, do not use a gel cell and a wet cell together, in any form, unless you for some reason have two separate chargers. You see, the top end voltage for a wet cell is different than that for a gel cell, and you r charger will try to obtain the highest voltage it can, based on it's design. This works so-so for wet cells, and not at all for gel cells.
What charger do you have, and is it a three stage charger? More than probably it is a ferro-resonant charger. If three stage, then the top voltage could be set for the gel cell, and then the wet cell would be undercharged. Or it could be set for the wet cell, and the gel cell will likely short out or be destroyed..possibly explode even (one of the warnings mentions this).
If the charger is a ferro-resonant charger, then only the wet cell will be mildly happy, as it takes a long time to get there with this charger, but it will eventually charge up to 14.6v or so, which exceeds the Do-Not-Exceed rating of the gel cells.
It's best to have a separate starting battery (typical truck starting battery..non-marine, and non-deep cycle) which is used ONLY for that purpose. Then add in a house bank..or two, as I have done. That bank should be sized to the boat, the load, the space available, charging source and type etc. This case would be a deep discharge cell..probably a group 27. They run around $45 every weekend at K-Mart. Realize that there is nothing magic about the "Marine" title when it comes to batteries..all you want are deep discharge cells. Separate these two banks with the 1-2-both-off switch, and then install a West Marine or Heart Interface Charge Combiner ahead of the two batteries, so that the charge is applied to both batteries until they become charged, then the combiner disconnects the two batteries from the charging buss. This runs around $140, and is the center of any charging system. All charge sources will be led through this device, be they solar, wind, thermalnuclear or "IT".
Cheers! and wondering how many figure out "IT"?
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 ~~Lake Superior~~~
Dan H wrote: My CD25 came with two batteries. The original water filled type is currently installed. The former owner purchased a gel battery but did not install it. I would like to use both. The wiring is only set up for the one. Can I use two different types together? What wiring modifications are required to add the additional battery? If anyone can point me to "factory wiring scheme", I am thinking that might be best.
demers@sgi.com
-
Larry DeMers
Re: Battery charge1-2
So many questions...
The stock CD system is a good average way to charge the batteries and keep them healthy for a few years anyway, depending on use, size, load, and care. They rarely will actually get topped off as is required by the manuf. however, and this is one thing that grows dendrites between plates, and kills them eventually.
Combining batteries for a period of time, while motoring is fine Warren, but the problem happens when you get to your anchorage, toss out the hook, grab the beer and wife, and head to the friends boat next over in the bay. Damn, forgot to switch over to my even or is it odd today..battery? Too complicated for most people to keep on top of. Batteries that are combined have a voltage equal to the lowest voltage of those being combined. If one is dead..soon will the other be so.
So time has taught that a separated system is best, but this is not written in stone either.
What I have found to work exceedingly well is a Charge Combiner. This device takes your charging source, connects it up to the batteries..which the combiner parallels while being charged. As soon as the batteries are topped up to the individual preset voltages, the respective relay opens up, stopping the charging. This eliminates having to worry about putting the battery switch in the "Both" position, then remembering to return it to the house bank.
In answer to Mike and Dave's plugging in question, I do always plug in. I cured our electrolysis problems early on, and have none now at all. I prefer to have the added security of an infinite power supply for my bilge pump, should it take off sometime while I am gone. Taking batteries home may be a distasteful option when you are using a group 25 at 50-60 lbs., but with T105's (6v golf cart batt) at 135lbs for the pair, or a L116 at about 90 lbs, this is not a wise thing to try.
It also adds to the hassle factor of sailing, which one tries valiantly to minimize, or you find yourself not going as often etc.etc.
So with a 3 stage charging system, you could stop shlepping batteries back and forth Dave..leave her plugged in for the week, get a proper charge on the cells, regularly, and have plenty of power for the bilge pump should those polyestermites eat through your hull sometime.. ;^)))!
I hope I am not boring folks with my preaching about batteries. It is a complicated subject, with many options..some bad. I have just come through this forest myself, and learned a few things on the way.
Hey, was 5deg. up in the boating country a few days ago! Yippee..swimming weather! hee..
Larry
demers@sgi.com
The stock CD system is a good average way to charge the batteries and keep them healthy for a few years anyway, depending on use, size, load, and care. They rarely will actually get topped off as is required by the manuf. however, and this is one thing that grows dendrites between plates, and kills them eventually.
Combining batteries for a period of time, while motoring is fine Warren, but the problem happens when you get to your anchorage, toss out the hook, grab the beer and wife, and head to the friends boat next over in the bay. Damn, forgot to switch over to my even or is it odd today..battery? Too complicated for most people to keep on top of. Batteries that are combined have a voltage equal to the lowest voltage of those being combined. If one is dead..soon will the other be so.
So time has taught that a separated system is best, but this is not written in stone either.
What I have found to work exceedingly well is a Charge Combiner. This device takes your charging source, connects it up to the batteries..which the combiner parallels while being charged. As soon as the batteries are topped up to the individual preset voltages, the respective relay opens up, stopping the charging. This eliminates having to worry about putting the battery switch in the "Both" position, then remembering to return it to the house bank.
In answer to Mike and Dave's plugging in question, I do always plug in. I cured our electrolysis problems early on, and have none now at all. I prefer to have the added security of an infinite power supply for my bilge pump, should it take off sometime while I am gone. Taking batteries home may be a distasteful option when you are using a group 25 at 50-60 lbs., but with T105's (6v golf cart batt) at 135lbs for the pair, or a L116 at about 90 lbs, this is not a wise thing to try.
It also adds to the hassle factor of sailing, which one tries valiantly to minimize, or you find yourself not going as often etc.etc.
So with a 3 stage charging system, you could stop shlepping batteries back and forth Dave..leave her plugged in for the week, get a proper charge on the cells, regularly, and have plenty of power for the bilge pump should those polyestermites eat through your hull sometime.. ;^)))!
I hope I am not boring folks with my preaching about batteries. It is a complicated subject, with many options..some bad. I have just come through this forest myself, and learned a few things on the way.
Hey, was 5deg. up in the boating country a few days ago! Yippee..swimming weather! hee..
Larry
Hud Smith wrote: I guess it depends on how the wiring is set up, but in a "factory" wiring on a CD27, if the engine is running with the battery selector on 1, does the alternator charge both batteries or only the battery selected? Thanks
Hud
demers@sgi.com