There seems to be alot of correspondence on this board about maintaining and/or replacing seacocks/gate valves. The work involved sounds tricky, the devices hard to get to and the benefits dubious. Seems like a perfect topic for controversy.
When I purchased my '73 Ty Weekender in '87, the seacocks (or gate valves) were frozen open, as they have remained for the last 14 years (all in freshwater, soon to be salt). From what I've read, I can see no reason other than hose leakage or breakage that would require me to close them. Wouldn't annual futzing with the hoses, clamps, valves, etc. be more likely to cause a failure than leaving the system intact? Wouldn't it be just as likely for a hose to burst or leak when I am not aboard as when I am? Given that the seacocks must be left open when not aboard to allow rain water to drain, it seems highly unlikely that I would be aboard to close them if there was a problem (obviously a daysailor's perspective). I guess turning a valve would be alot easier than trying to use a plug if I was aboard, but ...
How likely are the kinds of scenarios that we seem to be fretting over?
Joel
Pokey II
'73 Ty Weekender/#549
Bayside, NY
bondy_joel@hotmail.com
Why maintain seacocks?
Moderator: Jim Walsh
-
Anthony P. Jeske
Re: Seacocks: I've used them!
Joel:
A major cause of boat sinkings is due to flooding thru the head. I was always careful to prevent that from happening on the CD-28 I used to own by closing the seacock after each use of the head. Also, on the same boat, a little note posted by the manufacturer near the sink in the head advised that on a high angle of heel, the sink might be below the water line and water could enter the boat. So I kept that seacock closed when not in use. On two occasions, I had water leaks in the engine cooling system, both of which were discovered by me when I heard water running in the engine compartment after the engine was stopped. I was able to stop the leak simply by closing the seacock. While it may be possible to find a screwdriver and remove a hose clamp or two, and them remove a hose and then insert a plug to stop such a leak, believe me it's a LOT easier to close the seacock!
In my opinion, time spent on seacock maintenance was time well spent.
Regards,
Tony Jeske
ajeske@ixpres.com
A major cause of boat sinkings is due to flooding thru the head. I was always careful to prevent that from happening on the CD-28 I used to own by closing the seacock after each use of the head. Also, on the same boat, a little note posted by the manufacturer near the sink in the head advised that on a high angle of heel, the sink might be below the water line and water could enter the boat. So I kept that seacock closed when not in use. On two occasions, I had water leaks in the engine cooling system, both of which were discovered by me when I heard water running in the engine compartment after the engine was stopped. I was able to stop the leak simply by closing the seacock. While it may be possible to find a screwdriver and remove a hose clamp or two, and them remove a hose and then insert a plug to stop such a leak, believe me it's a LOT easier to close the seacock!
In my opinion, time spent on seacock maintenance was time well spent.
Regards,
Tony Jeske
ajeske@ixpres.com
-
Warren Kaplan
Re: Why maintain seacocks?
I just did 3 of my 5 seacocks on saturday afternoon. They're really not that difficult to do if they are maintained. You really aren't dealing with hoses or hose clamps at all. Just a couple of nuts, a washer and the barrel. Of course if they're frozen, that's a different kettle of fish. You're right in that the hardest part is getting to them but after that is pretty easy. Someone once said to me "all these safety precautions are unnecessary IF everything goes right." When you need them is if something goes wrong. Unfortunately if something goes wrong when a seacock is needed, it could turn into more than an inconvenience. Your boat could easily sink.
By the way. Back in 1972 I used to moor a Seasprite 23 in Little Neck Bay. Sailed it out of Great Neck Estates (Tennis Bubble) while I lived in Bayside. Now I sail a CD 27 and I keep it in Bayshore. Sail Great South Bay because of the dependable sea breeze.
Good Luck,
Warren Kaplan
S/V Sine Qua Non
Setsail728@aol.com
By the way. Back in 1972 I used to moor a Seasprite 23 in Little Neck Bay. Sailed it out of Great Neck Estates (Tennis Bubble) while I lived in Bayside. Now I sail a CD 27 and I keep it in Bayshore. Sail Great South Bay because of the dependable sea breeze.
Good Luck,
Warren Kaplan
S/V Sine Qua Non
Setsail728@aol.com
-
Larry DeMers
Re: Why maintain seacocks?
Why indeed!
I mean they are a pesky nuisance, where maintenance is "tricky", and "the benfits are dubious" if you aren't too concerned with sinking.
The reason that we are all so concerned about seacocks is that we have all realized the necessity of having a way to control water incursion should something untoward happen to your hose. To us (I trust that I speak in general for all that service and care for their seacocks/boats), we would rather not count on blind stupid luck to pull our vessels/homes out of the fire for want of a 45 minute maintenance job each year (once a pattern is established and experience is gained).
Your attitude suggests that you are not fond of maintenance work, and consider it an interruption rather than a spring ritual or necessity (based on the idea that you take care of the boat and it will take care of you). Perhaps try seeing this needed work as a beginning of spring, and try to find something in it that is interesting or engaging..jeesh, that is half of sailing for me.
No amount of annual "futzing" with the hoses will replace the lost lubrication in the seacock, nor will it prevent it from galling or welding in position after what did you say, 14 years of neglect? (spoken with pride even...). Nor will it close the seacock when the old hose that you passed earlier in the year, fails and begins outpacing your electric bilge pump by 10:1..
There is no controversy here about seacocks or their maintenance. We all realize that it is a necessary part of being a sailor.
The only seacocks I leave open while gone from my boat are the two cockpit seacocks. Every other seacock is closed and remains that way except for that period of time when it is actually needed..except for the engine seacock. It is open as long as the ignition key is removed from the seacock handle, where I stow it when the engine is shutdown and we are gone. So each seacock does get exercised at least once a year (the cockpit scupper seacocks (2) ), and usually a lot more often than that.
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30
demers@sgi.com
I mean they are a pesky nuisance, where maintenance is "tricky", and "the benfits are dubious" if you aren't too concerned with sinking.
The reason that we are all so concerned about seacocks is that we have all realized the necessity of having a way to control water incursion should something untoward happen to your hose. To us (I trust that I speak in general for all that service and care for their seacocks/boats), we would rather not count on blind stupid luck to pull our vessels/homes out of the fire for want of a 45 minute maintenance job each year (once a pattern is established and experience is gained).
Your attitude suggests that you are not fond of maintenance work, and consider it an interruption rather than a spring ritual or necessity (based on the idea that you take care of the boat and it will take care of you). Perhaps try seeing this needed work as a beginning of spring, and try to find something in it that is interesting or engaging..jeesh, that is half of sailing for me.
No amount of annual "futzing" with the hoses will replace the lost lubrication in the seacock, nor will it prevent it from galling or welding in position after what did you say, 14 years of neglect? (spoken with pride even...). Nor will it close the seacock when the old hose that you passed earlier in the year, fails and begins outpacing your electric bilge pump by 10:1..
There is no controversy here about seacocks or their maintenance. We all realize that it is a necessary part of being a sailor.
The only seacocks I leave open while gone from my boat are the two cockpit seacocks. Every other seacock is closed and remains that way except for that period of time when it is actually needed..except for the engine seacock. It is open as long as the ignition key is removed from the seacock handle, where I stow it when the engine is shutdown and we are gone. So each seacock does get exercised at least once a year (the cockpit scupper seacocks (2) ), and usually a lot more often than that.
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30
Joel wrote: There seems to be alot of correspondence on this board about maintaining and/or replacing seacocks/gate valves. The work involved sounds tricky, the devices hard to get to and the benefits dubious. Seems like a perfect topic for controversy.
When I purchased my '73 Ty Weekender in '87, the seacocks (or gate valves) were frozen open, as they have remained for the last 14 years (all in freshwater, soon to be salt). From what I've read, I can see no reason other than hose leakage or breakage that would require me to close them. Wouldn't annual futzing with the hoses, clamps, valves, etc. be more likely to cause a failure than leaving the system intact? Wouldn't it be just as likely for a hose to burst or leak when I am not aboard as when I am? Given that the seacocks must be left open when not aboard to allow rain water to drain, it seems highly unlikely that I would be aboard to close them if there was a problem (obviously a daysailor's perspective). I guess turning a valve would be alot easier than trying to use a plug if I was aboard, but ...
How likely are the kinds of scenarios that we seem to be fretting over?
Joel
Pokey II
'73 Ty Weekender/#549
Bayside, NY
demers@sgi.com
-
Chris Cram
what a great idea
Every thing that needs to said about maintaining seacocks has been said by Larry and others. I just wanted to say, Larry, what a great idea to keep your ignition key on the cooling water intake seacock. That certainly eliminates the mad rush to look thru the engine access hatch to see if it is open because you've had a brain freeze and your just not sure. Also it keeps curious children from throwing the keys overboard to see if the floaty thingy really floats. (thats happened to me)
Chris Cram
CD 30 C
cccobx@prodigy.net
Chris Cram
CD 30 C
cccobx@prodigy.net
-
M. R. Bober
Re: Seacocks: I've used them! Me too!
Several years ago the galley sink drain hose worked its way loose from the sink tailpiece. My perceptive mate (the best kind, really) heard water running. Water was high in the bilge, but not over the cabin sole. Fortunately, Joel, the well maintained seacock was easily closed. I would strongly advise that prudent sailors care for their safety equipment even if it's inconvenient (like the cockpit scupper seacocks on the CD27).
Feeling foolish isn't the worst thing that can happen on a poorly cared for vessel.
Mitchell Bober
RESPITE
CD330
Feeling foolish isn't the worst thing that can happen on a poorly cared for vessel.
Mitchell Bober
RESPITE
CD330
-
Larry DeMers
Re: what a great idea
Thanks Chris..it came from inspiration after a little perspiration I am afraid. We were in a hurry to get moving one Friday night, Jan threw me the key from the galley drawer, and I started the engine. Being a clever SOB, I thought I would save time by untying the 2 spring lines and starboard dolphin pole lines, and stow them while the diesel warms up..heh. Well, sure, I finaly got around to checking the water flow from the exhaust..hmm, not a lot of water, and a heck of a lot of steam or vapor.
Well, I shut the engine down immediatelly, and dove below..found the seacock off, and the impellor destroyed with 3 paddles gone into the engine. So much for an early anchorage, restful night and long trip tomorrow.
Lesson cost me an engine rebuild in the end (1 year later)..dat's 26 Boat Bucks guys (1 B.B =$100). Warped head, plugged exhaust passages from the impellor melting down etc.
So now, the Key is on a leather loop, hung on the handle of the seacock. If it is on the handle, the seacock MUST be off.
I also use one of those blue nitrile impellors that can run dry for some time before disentegrating..ie: those black ones. Belts AND suspenders...
Hey springtime is here, and it snowed out today..hea.gonna be 15 deg. tonight! jeesh. It was 65 on Saturday and gorgeous out.
Cheers!
Larry
demers@sgi.com
Well, I shut the engine down immediatelly, and dove below..found the seacock off, and the impellor destroyed with 3 paddles gone into the engine. So much for an early anchorage, restful night and long trip tomorrow.
Lesson cost me an engine rebuild in the end (1 year later)..dat's 26 Boat Bucks guys (1 B.B =$100). Warped head, plugged exhaust passages from the impellor melting down etc.
So now, the Key is on a leather loop, hung on the handle of the seacock. If it is on the handle, the seacock MUST be off.
I also use one of those blue nitrile impellors that can run dry for some time before disentegrating..ie: those black ones. Belts AND suspenders...
Hey springtime is here, and it snowed out today..hea.gonna be 15 deg. tonight! jeesh. It was 65 on Saturday and gorgeous out.
Cheers!
Larry
Chris Cram wrote: Every thing that needs to said about maintaining seacocks has been said by Larry and others. I just wanted to say, Larry, what a great idea to keep your ignition key on the cooling water intake seacock. That certainly eliminates the mad rush to look thru the engine access hatch to see if it is open because you've had a brain freeze and your just not sure. Also it keeps curious children from throwing the keys overboard to see if the floaty thingy really floats. (thats happened to me)
Chris Cram
CD 30 C
demers@sgi.com
-
Jay Hubbard Fiddler's Gr
Re: what a great idea -- Best of the Year
I nominate this the best idea of the year.
Mailbox1@worldnet.att.net
Larry DeMers wrote: Thanks Chris..it came from inspiration after a little perspiration I am afraid. We were in a hurry to get moving one Friday night, Jan threw me the key from the galley drawer, and I started the engine. Being a clever SOB, I thought I would save time by untying the 2 spring lines and starboard dolphin pole lines, and stow them while the diesel warms up..heh. Well, sure, I finaly got around to checking the water flow from the exhaust..hmm, not a lot of water, and a heck of a lot of steam or vapor.
Well, I shut the engine down immediatelly, and dove below..found the seacock off, and the impellor destroyed with 3 paddles gone into the engine. So much for an early anchorage, restful night and long trip tomorrow.
Lesson cost me an engine rebuild in the end (1 year later)..dat's 26 Boat Bucks guys (1 B.B =$100). Warped head, plugged exhaust passages from the impellor melting down etc.
So now, the Key is on a leather loop, hung on the handle of the seacock. If it is on the handle, the seacock MUST be off.
I also use one of those blue nitrile impellors that can run dry for some time before disentegrating..ie: those black ones. Belts AND suspenders...
Hey springtime is here, and it snowed out today..hea.gonna be 15 deg. tonight! jeesh. It was 65 on Saturday and gorgeous out.
Cheers!
Larry
Chris Cram wrote: Every thing that needs to said about maintaining seacocks has been said by Larry and others. I just wanted to say, Larry, what a great idea to keep your ignition key on the cooling water intake seacock. That certainly eliminates the mad rush to look thru the engine access hatch to see if it is open because you've had a brain freeze and your just not sure. Also it keeps curious children from throwing the keys overboard to see if the floaty thingy really floats. (thats happened to me)
Chris Cram
CD 30 C
Mailbox1@worldnet.att.net
-
Neil Gordon
Re: Why maintain seacocks?
>>Wouldn't annual futzing with the hoses, clamps, valves, etc. be more likely to cause a failure than leaving the system intact?<<
The futzing is done on the hard. As sea, a seacock is very few parts and isn't likely to disassemble itself. Two maintained hose clamps are unlikely to *both* fail. Etc.
>>Wouldn't it be just as likely for a hose to burst or leak when I am not aboard as when I am?<<
If a hose fails while you are ashore, your boat sinks and you call the insurance company. If it fails when you are on board and at sea, the boat sinks and you, your family, friends and/or business associates don't live to call anyone.
Regards, Neil
s/v LIQUIDITY
Cape Dory 28 #167
neil@nrgordon.com
The futzing is done on the hard. As sea, a seacock is very few parts and isn't likely to disassemble itself. Two maintained hose clamps are unlikely to *both* fail. Etc.
>>Wouldn't it be just as likely for a hose to burst or leak when I am not aboard as when I am?<<
If a hose fails while you are ashore, your boat sinks and you call the insurance company. If it fails when you are on board and at sea, the boat sinks and you, your family, friends and/or business associates don't live to call anyone.
Regards, Neil
s/v LIQUIDITY
Cape Dory 28 #167
neil@nrgordon.com
-
Warren Kaplan
Re: what a great idea
Larry,
The keys on the seacock handle is a great idea. On my CD27 however the little handle for the Kingston cock is "perched" almost directly over the bilge. I don't know about you, but often when I sail not only do I have to deal with the "laws of the sea" but I also have to deal with the "law of Murphy". Plunk! God forbid this genius captain should ever think about getting a spare key stowed safely elsewhere on board! HAHAHAHAHA!
Warren
Setsail728@aol.com
The keys on the seacock handle is a great idea. On my CD27 however the little handle for the Kingston cock is "perched" almost directly over the bilge. I don't know about you, but often when I sail not only do I have to deal with the "laws of the sea" but I also have to deal with the "law of Murphy". Plunk! God forbid this genius captain should ever think about getting a spare key stowed safely elsewhere on board! HAHAHAHAHA!
Warren
Setsail728@aol.com
-
Joel
Maybe I am, Yes, I do
I do own a Typhoon and perhaps have been extremely lucky given my lack of knowledge about her maintenance.
Until now I've only sailed her on a small lake in Pa. The only seacocks are for the cockpit drains, so many of the issues raised in the responses are new (and instructional) to me. For that I thank all of the respondents.
As far as the intimation of pride in the lack of maintenance of the seacocks, believe me, I didn't know they needed maintenance until I got a copy of the owner's manual last year. I've sailed her for 13 years without a manual and didn't know about the routine maintenance required of these devices. All I know is that I never tried to turn one until this year. As a recent reader of this forum, I read about the grief so many have had maintaining them, thus my query.
The tone of the responses is along the lines of what I expected when I made my post and, given the reaction to the idea of storing the ignition key on the seacock, it was of value to others as well.
Thanks,
Joel
Pokey II
'73 Typhoon/#549
bondy_joel@hotmail.com
Until now I've only sailed her on a small lake in Pa. The only seacocks are for the cockpit drains, so many of the issues raised in the responses are new (and instructional) to me. For that I thank all of the respondents.
As far as the intimation of pride in the lack of maintenance of the seacocks, believe me, I didn't know they needed maintenance until I got a copy of the owner's manual last year. I've sailed her for 13 years without a manual and didn't know about the routine maintenance required of these devices. All I know is that I never tried to turn one until this year. As a recent reader of this forum, I read about the grief so many have had maintaining them, thus my query.
The tone of the responses is along the lines of what I expected when I made my post and, given the reaction to the idea of storing the ignition key on the seacock, it was of value to others as well.
Thanks,
Joel
Pokey II
'73 Typhoon/#549
bondy_joel@hotmail.com
-
Catherine Monaghan
Assistant Webmaster's Comments
Many of our beloved CDs have been purchased used without manuals or documentation of any kind, some by those that have been maintaining boats for years and some by new sailors to our sport without much knowledge of sailing, nevermind maintenance. Others, like myself, owned daysailsers that didn't have any machinery, gadgets or gizmos -- just a hull, rig and sails -- so even though we sailed for years, we were unfamiliar with the maintenance procedures for engines and the like when we first purchased our CD. We were lucky enough to get the Owner's Manual for the boat and the engine and the previous owners were willing to help us commission her. Not everyone is so lucky.
Let's not forget that the intention of this board is to freely share knowledge and experiences as well as to allow a forum for those who need questions answered. Please keep in mind that no one asks a question unless they're truly looking for advice or suggestions. And advice/suggestions should be delivered in such a manner that will encourage them to return to this board again and again and to continue to ask and/or throw in their own 2 cents.
Everyone who visits this board should feel free to ask and/or respond without feeling belittled, humiliated or intimidated. Let's try to remember that those reading our posts have feelings and we should try to resond positively and constructively.
Thanks,
catherine_monaghan@merck.com
CCDOA Assistant Webmaster
CD32 Realization, #3
Rahway, NJ
Raritan Bay
catherine_monaghan@merck.com
Let's not forget that the intention of this board is to freely share knowledge and experiences as well as to allow a forum for those who need questions answered. Please keep in mind that no one asks a question unless they're truly looking for advice or suggestions. And advice/suggestions should be delivered in such a manner that will encourage them to return to this board again and again and to continue to ask and/or throw in their own 2 cents.
Everyone who visits this board should feel free to ask and/or respond without feeling belittled, humiliated or intimidated. Let's try to remember that those reading our posts have feelings and we should try to resond positively and constructively.
Thanks,
catherine_monaghan@merck.com
CCDOA Assistant Webmaster
CD32 Realization, #3
Rahway, NJ
Raritan Bay
Joel wrote: There seems to be alot of correspondence on this board about maintaining and/or replacing seacocks/gate valves. The work involved sounds tricky, the devices hard to get to and the benefits dubious. Seems like a perfect topic for controversy.
When I purchased my '73 Ty Weekender in '87, the seacocks (or gate valves) were frozen open, as they have remained for the last 14 years (all in freshwater, soon to be salt). From what I've read, I can see no reason other than hose leakage or breakage that would require me to close them. Wouldn't annual futzing with the hoses, clamps, valves, etc. be more likely to cause a failure than leaving the system intact? Wouldn't it be just as likely for a hose to burst or leak when I am not aboard as when I am? Given that the seacocks must be left open when not aboard to allow rain water to drain, it seems highly unlikely that I would be aboard to close them if there was a problem (obviously a daysailor's perspective). I guess turning a valve would be alot easier than trying to use a plug if I was aboard, but ...
How likely are the kinds of scenarios that we seem to be fretting over?
Joel
Pokey II
'73 Ty Weekender/#549
Bayside, NY
catherine_monaghan@merck.com
-
Michael Heintz
Catherine... you are correct !!!!!!!!
Catherine,
You are right on the money!!!!!!
I bought "Machts Nichts" last year. My first "own" sailboat,I had been sailing with my dad for over 40 years. When it's "yours" and are complestly responsible for it's upkeep and safty it's a different story.
This board has been fantastic !!!!!!! No one have has ever belittled any question I've had , no matter how silly it may have seemed to me.
This board has some of the most knowledgable and helpfull sailors I've ever met!!!!!! ( and not met !! )
Thanks again to all of you, all the great tips from seacocks to bottom paint!!!!
Machts Nichts..... launched today yea!!!!!!
Michael Heintz
Mzenith@aol.com
You are right on the money!!!!!!
I bought "Machts Nichts" last year. My first "own" sailboat,I had been sailing with my dad for over 40 years. When it's "yours" and are complestly responsible for it's upkeep and safty it's a different story.
This board has been fantastic !!!!!!! No one have has ever belittled any question I've had , no matter how silly it may have seemed to me.
This board has some of the most knowledgable and helpfull sailors I've ever met!!!!!! ( and not met !! )
Thanks again to all of you, all the great tips from seacocks to bottom paint!!!!
Machts Nichts..... launched today yea!!!!!!
Michael Heintz
Mzenith@aol.com
-
Marino Curati
Re: Maybe I am, Yes, I do
That's OK, my Ty doesn't have any valves at all! It's an old one (1970) and my guess is that they must have been an option at the time. I'm planning on adding them next year when I redo the bottom. I currently have a screwdriver and wooden plugs handy just in case. Being on Lake Erie, if it sinks at the dock, it'll only drop a couple feet!
I've never really thought of it but, wouldn't properly secured dock lines prevent a boat from sinking at dock?
Marino Curati
Ty #74 Snug
Cleveland
mcurati@vision-design-inc.com
I've never really thought of it but, wouldn't properly secured dock lines prevent a boat from sinking at dock?
Marino Curati
Ty #74 Snug
Cleveland
mcurati@vision-design-inc.com