Recently purchased a 1981 CD 30 Cutter (Hull #220). I am trying to install an electric bilge pump w/auto float switch. I know there is quite a bit of info in the archives of this board but the search engine is a bit fussy today. I would like to outline how I plan to install this and gather comments and suggestions from the wise and experienced CD owners that frequent this board. Detailed, "Lary DeMers" (with all respect, Mr. DeMers) type responses will be appreciated. One caveat...she is in the water (Houston, TX) and I don't want to take her out until well into winter (that would be next Jan/Feb for me!)
What I want to do is connect to the existing bilge line between the manual pump and thru-hull. Plan on using a "T" with Check Valves on both the auto & manual lines prior to the "T". This seemed pretty slick to me and the guy at West Marine when we worked it out but today I've read a couple of articles on Sailnet advising against check valves. One said it merely reduces flow, one said that the resistance in a check valve is more than a bilge pump can push through.
Thanks for making it all the way through this and I look forward to your ideas.
Jim Adams
Lauren Leigh
CD 30 Houston, TX
jamespadams@yahoo.com
auto bilge pump for CD30
Moderator: Jim Walsh
-
len
Re: auto bilge pump for CD30
jim
i wouldn't use the same outlet for the manual pump and electric pump and wouldn't rely on a check valve system - it shoudn't be hard to run a separate hose for the electric pump alongside the engine, through one of the cockpit lockers, and out its own through-hull (above the waterline) - auto float switches are a mixed blessing: positives obvious but they have a way of getting stuck in the "on" position" and running down your batteries - in any case you should install a three way switch: on, auto, off -
len
md.frel@nwh.org
i wouldn't use the same outlet for the manual pump and electric pump and wouldn't rely on a check valve system - it shoudn't be hard to run a separate hose for the electric pump alongside the engine, through one of the cockpit lockers, and out its own through-hull (above the waterline) - auto float switches are a mixed blessing: positives obvious but they have a way of getting stuck in the "on" position" and running down your batteries - in any case you should install a three way switch: on, auto, off -
len
md.frel@nwh.org
-
Larry DeMers
Re: auto bilge pump for CD30
Hi Jim, and welcome!
My philosophy about our bilge pump (CD30 also)is this: We normally have a dry bilge, with only packing gland drip and ice box melt usually getting down there. For this, we usually use the manual pump, as it's foot goes as low as possible in the bilge sump, making the boat dry as possible.
For situations where we spring a leaker, leave something open that shoulda been closed, or truly have trouble, I installed a Rule 2000 submersible pump about 1ft above the bilge sump. The pump was mounted to a disposable piece of wood, and the hose led out of the bilge between the cabin sole and the engine pan. It runs along the manual bilge pump hose through the port lazarette, to a thruhull, mounted just under the port aft rub rail, high up as possible. The hose was suspended from large nylon wire ties with a screw hole terminal on them, and these were screwed to wood cleats previously mounted by Cape Dory. It is important that most/all sag be removed from this hose, and that the hose remain as high up as possible for anti-siphon purposes.
The pump itself is controlled by a automatic diaphram switch remotely located in the engine compartment. I believe it is made by Groco, and runs around $40. How this works is simple and foolproof, and I highly recommend it with a caveat*. The switch is a microswitch, mounted to a metal diaphram in a housing, and the diaphram is sealed off, but has one input nipple. This is connected to a plastic hose that runs down into the bilge, and at it's end, I mounted a small bell housing with holes in it. This is mounted at the pump site, just upwind of the pump body. Increasing water level will try to push it's way into the bell housing and hose, increasing it's air pressure, which is felt by the switch assemblies diaphram. Enough pressure and the microswitch trips, starting the bilge pump motor. As the water level drops, the pressure in the tube is reduced, and the microswitch opens, and that is a cycle.
To monitor the number of times this happens, I mounted a small counter with an LCD display. This is a self powered (well, 10 yr. InfoLith battery) device that counts the number of times a 12vdc voltage has been applied to it's contacts. So far, it's never run legitimately, except for during a yearly test with a hose (now there is an odd feeling..filling the bilge with water, watching the waterline go down..exactly opposite what we all dream of).
With your system, I would strongly advise that you not put anything in the outlet hoses of your bilge pumps. Use separate thruhulls to accomplish repatriating the water with where it came. As you have read, check valves narrow the pathway for the bilgewater..and small stuff that doesn't choke your pump wil get caught in the narrowed passageway. At the very least, it cuts the flow of the whole system down to the diameter of that restriction. plus it's rsistance to water movement adds to the problem. Also, bilge pump outputs must never be combined, as tempting as that is, unless a system is engineered for it using scavenger pumps that are much larger than the pumps serving it. Not exactly what we want to do. So run separate good quality hose, and if you are concerned about throughput, you will opt for a hose that has a smooth interior finish for less resistance. The published numbers for these bilge pumps are **way** optimistic, and were taken with NO head at all..stricly a horizontal push of water, no hose to speak of.
My one and only caveat with the remote pressure switch is the microswitch that they incorporate in it. The quality was fine..Honeywell made mine. But these switches are made to operate a pilot relay for inductive loads like the bilge pump. I am not running a pilot relay as of yet (a pilot relay is a simple 12vdc relay, but with *silver* contacts and a wiping action to the contacts that self-cleans them of carbon)and have noticed that the microswitch contacts tend to stick on sometimes. These Rule pumps have a HUGE inductive kickback when they are turned off..the whole time the motor is rotating down from it's top rpm, it is serving the function of a DC Generator, and really well too. I would estimate that the voltage arc represents at least 500 volts of potential (very little current so no you can't shock someone with it). This arcing pits and burns the contacts over time, and eventualy, like the points we used to have in the "'tin lizzies' back in ought 4", the contacts can weld together..a cold weld, easily broken. But still, not good. Ahh, the answer is simple..
To cure this, a 12vdc relay (enclosed type) from Radio Shack is all that is needed. The pump is run off one relay contact, and the counter would be run off the other, so get a DPST relay. The diaphram switch runs the relay coil.
Now the beauty here, is that there is no contact with the water and the electrical equipement. there is nothing to corrode, jamb, stick or fail mechanicaly. The diaphram/switch assembly is adjustable to whatever depth you want to see before the pumping starts.
Both West Marine and Defender carry the Groco switch I believe.
Enjoy the summer breezes~!
Cheers!
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30
demers@sgi.com
My philosophy about our bilge pump (CD30 also)is this: We normally have a dry bilge, with only packing gland drip and ice box melt usually getting down there. For this, we usually use the manual pump, as it's foot goes as low as possible in the bilge sump, making the boat dry as possible.
For situations where we spring a leaker, leave something open that shoulda been closed, or truly have trouble, I installed a Rule 2000 submersible pump about 1ft above the bilge sump. The pump was mounted to a disposable piece of wood, and the hose led out of the bilge between the cabin sole and the engine pan. It runs along the manual bilge pump hose through the port lazarette, to a thruhull, mounted just under the port aft rub rail, high up as possible. The hose was suspended from large nylon wire ties with a screw hole terminal on them, and these were screwed to wood cleats previously mounted by Cape Dory. It is important that most/all sag be removed from this hose, and that the hose remain as high up as possible for anti-siphon purposes.
The pump itself is controlled by a automatic diaphram switch remotely located in the engine compartment. I believe it is made by Groco, and runs around $40. How this works is simple and foolproof, and I highly recommend it with a caveat*. The switch is a microswitch, mounted to a metal diaphram in a housing, and the diaphram is sealed off, but has one input nipple. This is connected to a plastic hose that runs down into the bilge, and at it's end, I mounted a small bell housing with holes in it. This is mounted at the pump site, just upwind of the pump body. Increasing water level will try to push it's way into the bell housing and hose, increasing it's air pressure, which is felt by the switch assemblies diaphram. Enough pressure and the microswitch trips, starting the bilge pump motor. As the water level drops, the pressure in the tube is reduced, and the microswitch opens, and that is a cycle.
To monitor the number of times this happens, I mounted a small counter with an LCD display. This is a self powered (well, 10 yr. InfoLith battery) device that counts the number of times a 12vdc voltage has been applied to it's contacts. So far, it's never run legitimately, except for during a yearly test with a hose (now there is an odd feeling..filling the bilge with water, watching the waterline go down..exactly opposite what we all dream of).
With your system, I would strongly advise that you not put anything in the outlet hoses of your bilge pumps. Use separate thruhulls to accomplish repatriating the water with where it came. As you have read, check valves narrow the pathway for the bilgewater..and small stuff that doesn't choke your pump wil get caught in the narrowed passageway. At the very least, it cuts the flow of the whole system down to the diameter of that restriction. plus it's rsistance to water movement adds to the problem. Also, bilge pump outputs must never be combined, as tempting as that is, unless a system is engineered for it using scavenger pumps that are much larger than the pumps serving it. Not exactly what we want to do. So run separate good quality hose, and if you are concerned about throughput, you will opt for a hose that has a smooth interior finish for less resistance. The published numbers for these bilge pumps are **way** optimistic, and were taken with NO head at all..stricly a horizontal push of water, no hose to speak of.
My one and only caveat with the remote pressure switch is the microswitch that they incorporate in it. The quality was fine..Honeywell made mine. But these switches are made to operate a pilot relay for inductive loads like the bilge pump. I am not running a pilot relay as of yet (a pilot relay is a simple 12vdc relay, but with *silver* contacts and a wiping action to the contacts that self-cleans them of carbon)and have noticed that the microswitch contacts tend to stick on sometimes. These Rule pumps have a HUGE inductive kickback when they are turned off..the whole time the motor is rotating down from it's top rpm, it is serving the function of a DC Generator, and really well too. I would estimate that the voltage arc represents at least 500 volts of potential (very little current so no you can't shock someone with it). This arcing pits and burns the contacts over time, and eventualy, like the points we used to have in the "'tin lizzies' back in ought 4", the contacts can weld together..a cold weld, easily broken. But still, not good. Ahh, the answer is simple..
To cure this, a 12vdc relay (enclosed type) from Radio Shack is all that is needed. The pump is run off one relay contact, and the counter would be run off the other, so get a DPST relay. The diaphram switch runs the relay coil.
Now the beauty here, is that there is no contact with the water and the electrical equipement. there is nothing to corrode, jamb, stick or fail mechanicaly. The diaphram/switch assembly is adjustable to whatever depth you want to see before the pumping starts.
Both West Marine and Defender carry the Groco switch I believe.
Enjoy the summer breezes~!
Cheers!
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30
Jim Adams wrote: Recently purchased a 1981 CD 30 Cutter (Hull #220). I am trying to install an electric bilge pump w/auto float switch. I know there is quite a bit of info in the archives of this board but the search engine is a bit fussy today. I would like to outline how I plan to install this and gather comments and suggestions from the wise and experienced CD owners that frequent this board. Detailed, "Lary DeMers" (with all respect, Mr. DeMers) type responses will be appreciated. One caveat...she is in the water (Houston, TX) and I don't want to take her out until well into winter (that would be next Jan/Feb for me!)
What I want to do is connect to the existing bilge line between the manual pump and thru-hull. Plan on using a "T" with Check Valves on both the auto & manual lines prior to the "T". This seemed pretty slick to me and the guy at West Marine when we worked it out but today I've read a couple of articles on Sailnet advising against check valves. One said it merely reduces flow, one said that the resistance in a check valve is more than a bilge pump can push through.
Thanks for making it all the way through this and I look forward to your ideas.
Jim Adams
Lauren Leigh
CD 30 Houston, TX
demers@sgi.com
-
John Sill
Re: auto bilge pump for CD30
I've tried several installation combinations on my CD31. It has a deep bilge (>3.5 ft) with existing thru-hulls near the stern in total providing ~ 6 foot head. The only satisfactory arrangement has been a fresh water pump (pressure!) in the engine compartment, operated by a float switch in the bottom of the bilge. The float switch is mounted to a shaft that holds it in position and the shaft is in turn bolted to the gray water tank up high in the bilge (just a convenient mounting point). That way the switch can be installed and removed from "afar". This is a 3/4" system. The fresh water pump has a filter to protect it from bilge gunk (absolutely necessary). The hose is also clamped to the shaft to keep it on the bottom of the bilge.
The manual 1 1/2" bilge pump (factory) is still installed and operable.
Other arrangements either don't have enough head (especially with one way valves installed), and/or oscillate. When on a hard tack with the crew in the cockpit (water is siphoned/driven back into the bilge, even with anti-siphon loops installed).
The fresh water pump provides high pressure and acts as it's own check valve.
Hope this is helpful.
jesill@erols.com
The manual 1 1/2" bilge pump (factory) is still installed and operable.
Other arrangements either don't have enough head (especially with one way valves installed), and/or oscillate. When on a hard tack with the crew in the cockpit (water is siphoned/driven back into the bilge, even with anti-siphon loops installed).
The fresh water pump provides high pressure and acts as it's own check valve.
Hope this is helpful.
jesill@erols.com
-
John Sill
Re: auto bilge pump for CD30
I've tried several installation combinations on my CD31. It has a deep bilge (>3.5 ft) with existing thru-hulls near the stern in total providing ~ 6 foot head. The only satisfactory arrangement has been a fresh water pump (pressure!) in the engine compartment, operated by a float switch in the bottom of the bilge. The float switch is mounted to a shaft that holds it in position and the shaft is in turn bolted to the gray water tank up high in the bilge (just a convenient mounting point). That way the switch can be installed and removed from "afar". This is a 3/4" system. The fresh water pump has a filter to protect it from bilge gunk (absolutely necessary). The hose is also clamped to the shaft to keep it on the bottom of the bilge.
The manual 1 1/2" bilge pump (factory) is still installed and operable.
Other arrangements either don't have enough head (especially with one way valves installed), and/or oscillate. When on a hard tack with the crew in the cockpit (water is siphoned/driven back into the bilge, even with anti-siphon loops installed).
The fresh water pump provides high pressure and acts as it's own check valve.
Hope this is helpful.
jesill@erols.com
The manual 1 1/2" bilge pump (factory) is still installed and operable.
Other arrangements either don't have enough head (especially with one way valves installed), and/or oscillate. When on a hard tack with the crew in the cockpit (water is siphoned/driven back into the bilge, even with anti-siphon loops installed).
The fresh water pump provides high pressure and acts as it's own check valve.
Hope this is helpful.
jesill@erols.com
-
Mark Yashinsky
Inductive load
For your pump, wire a diode (high amp) in reverse to the pump terminals, so that current does not flow thru it when the pump has power, but will, when the pump is producing current.
-
Larry DeMers
Re: Inductive load
Mark,
There you go..good idea, and one I have seen used on DC relays all the time. Will do. I bet it takes care of the back emf just great.
Everyone that is interested..I can provide a simple schemtaic of the relay, auto-manual switch and motor and counter connections if you would like it. E-Mail me for this.
Thanks Mark!~
Larry
demers@sgi.com
There you go..good idea, and one I have seen used on DC relays all the time. Will do. I bet it takes care of the back emf just great.
Everyone that is interested..I can provide a simple schemtaic of the relay, auto-manual switch and motor and counter connections if you would like it. E-Mail me for this.
Thanks Mark!~
Larry
Mark Yashinsky wrote: For your pump, wire a diode (high amp) in reverse to the pump terminals, so that current does not flow thru it when the pump has power, but will, when the pump is producing current.
demers@sgi.com
-
Jim Adams
Re: auto bilge pump for CD30 - Larry
Larry, I've aleady borrowed your idea of mounting the pump to a piece of wood. The pump is going to be used as an emergency backup only (or when flushing the freshwater tanks!), I don't mind a few strokes on the manual before and after each sail to empty it out. I'm going to slide it down through the access plate in the cabin sole as far as it will go, I cut the wood in a deep "V". I'm not quite advanced enough yet to go as far as you with the system, I'm just going to dunk my little pump with the attached float switch and let it go at that. Someday when I have a better understanding of how this would work and why I've been lucky that my boat hasn't gone under because I haven't been thorough enough then I'll redo the setup. Having purchased the boat recently and spent quite a bit of $$ at West Marine on goodies, my wife has shut off my funding so I'll go with what I have already purchased for now!
So the bottom line is that I need to put another hole in the stern. Would a regular hole bit work or is there some trick to this? Would a hole bit splinter the gelcoat? I think I'l put it right next to the existing bilge thru-hull for the sake of aesthetics.
Thanks very much for the reply and your time, you and others already ready saved me much time, money and mental anguish with this board! I will do my duty and register as soon as my wife returns my wallet.
btw/have you removed your club boom? The know-it-alls around the marina tell me that it must go. I kind of prefer to leave it for the sake of keeping the boat as original as possible and because the self-tacking is one less thing to screw up while I'm getting used to the boat. Perhaps when I get more nautical miles under my belt I'll give it a shot. It can always go back on.
Jim Adams
Lauren Leigh
CD30 Houston, TX
jamespadams@yahoo.com
So the bottom line is that I need to put another hole in the stern. Would a regular hole bit work or is there some trick to this? Would a hole bit splinter the gelcoat? I think I'l put it right next to the existing bilge thru-hull for the sake of aesthetics.
Thanks very much for the reply and your time, you and others already ready saved me much time, money and mental anguish with this board! I will do my duty and register as soon as my wife returns my wallet.
btw/have you removed your club boom? The know-it-alls around the marina tell me that it must go. I kind of prefer to leave it for the sake of keeping the boat as original as possible and because the self-tacking is one less thing to screw up while I'm getting used to the boat. Perhaps when I get more nautical miles under my belt I'll give it a shot. It can always go back on.
Jim Adams
Lauren Leigh
CD30 Houston, TX
jamespadams@yahoo.com
-
Patrick Turner
Re: auto bilge pump for CD30
There was a good article on Sailnet by Don Casey dated 3/20/01 and titled "building a better bilge pump". The gist of the article is that you really need 2 automatic pumps for the bilge. One big submersable one mounted as Larry D. describes....a little higher up in the bilge for real emergencies. A secound non-submersable pump (water puppy) mounted out of the bilge as John S. decscribes that can get the daily accumulation of packing gland/ice box melt out of the bottom. I suppose you could "T" the secound pump with the manual bilge pump since these "could be" considered non-emergency pumps.The best method,however is for every pump to have it's own thru hole. They are not difficult to install. Just get the correct hole saw for the size thru hole, measure and mark appropriatley and use a bedding compound. The best location is at least 2' above the waterline, but when I had my CD30 I placed the secound thru hole on the opposite side, mirror imaged to the original thru hole and it worked just fine. The water puppy does act as it's own check valve so it would get just about everything out.
Pat
patrick.t@home.com
Pat
patrick.t@home.com
-
John R.
Re: auto bilge pump for CD30
For what it's worth here's a few words on the bilge pumping arrangements I've built into our CD30. Perhaps you can get some ideas on what might be appropriate for you to incorporate into your own boat.Jim Adams wrote: Recently purchased a 1981 CD 30 Cutter (Hull #220). I am trying to install an electric bilge pump w/auto float switch. I know there is quite a bit of info in the archives of this board but the search engine is a bit fussy today. I would like to outline how I plan to install this and gather comments and suggestions from the wise and experienced CD owners that frequent this board. Detailed, "Lary DeMers" (with all respect, Mr. DeMers) type responses will be appreciated. One caveat...she is in the water (Houston, TX) and I don't want to take her out until well into winter (that would be next Jan/Feb for me!)
What I want to do is connect to the existing bilge line between the manual pump and thru-hull. Plan on using a "T" with Check Valves on both the auto & manual lines prior to the "T". This seemed pretty slick to me and the guy at West Marine when we worked it out but today I've read a couple of articles on Sailnet advising against check valves. One said it merely reduces flow, one said that the resistance in a check valve is more than a bilge pump can push through.
Thanks for making it all the way through this and I look forward to your ideas.
Jim Adams
Lauren Leigh
CD 30 Houston, TX
First of all, any of us with "pocket cruisers" (less than 36 feet) simply don't have the space available to install a substantial enough pump to handle a good sized leak from a fist sized hole or better. In a situation like that we are better off trying to slow the huge leak from the exterior with a sail or equivalent. If we were to be successful at that we still would have a lot of water seepage still to contend with. Even with the smaller leakage we need good pumps and back up systems.
To afford myself somewhat of a fighting chance in a bad situation I have the following systems: The primary bilge pump is a Par diaphragm bilge pump which is mounted high and dry out of the bilge. The beauty of this type of pump is that it can pass debris suspended in the water. They are easy to service. They have lower volume rates per minute but are more dependable than centrifugal pumps from clogging potential. I use this pump in combination with a Vetus engine raw water strainer instead one of those little "toy" bilge pump strainers that clog with the slightest amount of debris. The Vetus strainer has a 4" diameter x 2 1/2" deep strainer basket with a clear lid and is a breeze to service quickly if the need arises.
A LESSON: A friend once had a flooding problem during a storm in the Gulf of Mexico and two of his pumps were rendered useless when a paper navigation chart got into the flood waters and disintegrated into little pieces of paper and subsequently clogged both of his bilge pump strainers in very short order. He nearly lost his boat because of this surprise. If he were not a scared sailor with a large bucket he would not have his boat today.
Thus, that is one reason why I use a large engine raw water strainer as a bilge pump strainer. I also have three other pumping systems on board. One is a manually activated (via a circuit breaker) Rule 2000 centrifugal pump only for emergency use which is plumbed to its own thru hull. This pump is mounted in the shallow area of the bilge just aft of the shower sump pan in the CD30 directly below the bilge access panel in the sole for easy and quick access. The strainer base of the pump is lined with screening to minimize the chance of clogging debris entering the pump body. The third system utilizes the engine. I built a manifold system using standard marine grade bronze plumbing components and UL marine rated Y valves that is a part of the engine raw water intake system. The manifold has two Y valves. One opens a port that has a hose running deep into the bilge with a bronze strainer head attached to the end. The other port on the manifold connects to a freshwater flush out fitting in the aft end of the cockpit.
The engine can be used as an emergency bilge pump with this manifold system when the raw water engine inlet seacock is closed and the Y-valve (leading to the bilge hose) is opened. The water entering this hose is strained twice before entering the engines raw water pump, first by the hose strainer and second by the engine raw water strainer.
The freshwater flush valve on the manifold allows me to connect a garden hose to a Perko deck fitting in the cockpit and flush out the raw water side of the cooling system with fresh water. The manifold serves double duty and provides for two excellent advantages at very little cost and minimal trouble to install.
The fourth bilge system is a secondary function of the shower pan sump system. The CD30 shower pan was originally designed to drain into the bilge.......a very bad idea. I converted this situation to a double duty arrangement by utilizing a Shurflo water pump, a Bosworth Y-valve, and a modified stainless baitwell strainer.
I installed the pump under the head vanity cabinet drawer section and ran the pump outlet to the existing vanity sink basin thru-hull. The pump inlet is run back to the aft end of the shower sump where the Y-valve is installed on the after end of the sump pan. The hose is connected to the "always open" inlet port of the Y-valve. One of the Y-valve outlet ports is run down under the sump pan and connected to the sump drain nipple. The drain opening in the pan is fitted with a plastic strainer dome. The other Y-valve inlet port is connected to a short length of hose that has a stainless baitwell screen strainer installed on its end and that hose runs down to the base of the bilge in that area directly below the valve. Obviously this allows the shower sump pump to function as an emegency bilge pump or a shower sump pump with the flip of the Y-valve lever. The Sureflo pump can run dry without damage and is self priming. This pump system is manually activated with a circuit breaker.
Someone else mentioned use of a Water Puppy pump, they cannot be run dry without damage after a very short period and they use a lot of power, something like 9 amps, twice that of basic pumps. They are excellent utility pumps but I think unsatisfactory for bilge pump use.
In a desperate situation I could always convert the pressure water pump (Par diaphram type) to function as a bilge pump (has a strainer inline) also if one of the others fail and just pump directly into the galley sink drain.
There is also the manual gusher pump onboard but I consider that a next to last resort because they can be very tiring, not something to rely heavily on with a small crew.
Last but not least is the proverbial large bucket. I would serve duty as the scared sailor and that pump would really be dependable, for awhile anyway.
Never install check valves on a bilge pump, always use dedicated overboard systems (don't double up), always use smooth walled hose (reinforced)with no tight bends, always use large strainers with fine mesh straining, use low amperage pumps when possible. Locate back up emergency pumps in higher area of the bilge so they stay clean and ready for use. Never use archaic mechanical float switches on emergency pumps or any pumps in my opinion. Use electronic switches like the "Water Witch" brand on the primary pump only (or the air bell switches if you don't mind mechanical complexity).