More info on ball valves and a request

[Tom]

About ten years ago I had an overboard through hull installed on the head exhaust and a Y valve put in. The yard in North Carolina used a ball valve which is made in Italy and distributed by Buck Algonquin in this country. The handle says "Valpres" on it. The literature on this valve says it is bronze and has a stainless steel ball, however a call to BA seems to reveal that the ball is brass that is chrome plated. The body of the valve MAY be bronze as there doesn't seem to be any clear definition of what constitutes "bronze" vis a vis brass.

That's the background, now here's what happened to me. I hauled out last week and was cleaning and lubing all the seacocks and discovered that I couldn't turn this Valpres ball valve. So I removed it and discovered that the ball was completely gone. I'm guessing that what happened is that the chrome plate wore off of the ball exposing the brass to salt water. Salt water then ate the brass ball so that there was nothing left to turn and no way to shut the valve off.

You might be able to turn the handle back and forth but not have a ball attached inside. I'd say these valves are suspect and I'd never put one on my boat again. If you have one when you're out of the water I'd suggest that you close it and then go outside with a flashlight and look up the through hull to make sure there is a ball in good condition in there.

West marine has a bronze ball valve that they say is UL approved etc., but it is not a full flow valve. They also have a full flow ball valve that they call a "sea cock" but it isn't really. It has the name Apollo on the handle and is made by Conbraco. It's a meatier looking valve than the Valpres valve and sells for around $ 80 in the 1 1/2 inch size but to me the ball looks suspiciously identical to the ball in the Valpres valve. There's more to this story than there is room to tell here, but I and another fellow are looking into ball valves. For whatever reason my ball was completely eaten away in about 10 years but there is no other sign of electrolysis on the boat and she's always had zinc protection etc.

OK now for the request. Someone said there is an article about ball valves in the December 1997 issue of Practical Sailor which rated them. I'm wondering if anyone has a copy of that issue and can either scan the article and email it to me or failing that can read the article and fill me in on the findings especially any concerning the Valpres or Conbraco valves. If anyone is interested I have some additional information that I can pass along if you write me directly.

The wx is in the 70s out here and there were a lot of boats out sailing this past week. It's beginning to look like summer!



TomCambria@mindspring.com

[Bristol Bronze]

About ten years ago I had an overboard through hull installed on the head exhaust and a Y valve put in. The yard in North Carolina used a ball valve which is made in Italy and distributed by Buck Algonquin in this country. The handle says "Valpres" on it. The literature on this valve says it is bronze and has a stainless steel ball, however a call to BA seems to reveal that the ball is brass that is chrome plated. The body of the valve MAY be bronze as there doesn't seem to be any clear definition of what constitutes "bronze" vis a vis brass.

That's the background, now here's what happened to me. I hauled out last week and was cleaning and lubing all the seacocks and discovered that I couldn't turn this Valpres ball valve. So I removed it and discovered that the ball was completely gone. I'm guessing that what happened is that the chrome plate wore off of the ball exposing the brass to salt water. Salt water then ate the brass ball so that there was nothing left to turn and no way to shut the valve off.

You might be able to turn the handle back and forth but not have a ball attached inside. I'd say these valves are suspect and I'd never put one on my boat again. If you have one when you're out of the water I'd suggest that you close it and then go outside with a flashlight and look up the through hull to make sure there is a ball in good condition in there.

West marine has a bronze ball valve that they say is UL approved etc., but it is not a full flow valve. They also have a full flow ball valve that they call a "sea cock" but it isn't really. It has the name Apollo on the handle and is made by Conbraco. It's a meatier looking valve than the Valpres valve and sells for around $ 80 in the 1 1/2 inch size but to me the ball looks suspiciously identical to the ball in the Valpres valve. There's more to this story than there is room to tell here, but I and another fellow are looking into ball valves. For whatever reason my ball was completely eaten away in about 10 years but there is no other sign of electrolysis on the boat and she's always had zinc protection etc.

OK now for the request. Someone said there is an article about ball valves in the December 1997 issue of Practical Sailor which rated them. I'm wondering if anyone has a copy of that issue and can either scan the article and email it to me or failing that can read the article and fill me in on the findings especially any concerning the Valpres or Conbraco valves. If anyone is interested I have some additional information that I can pass along if you write me directly.

The wx is in the 70s out here and there were a lot of boats out sailing this past week. It's beginning to look like summer!

Dear Tom,

In a previous career I was a sales engineer for the Nation's second largest brass rod manufacturer. In a normal month I would sell two million pounds of brass rod. Many of my customers were valve manufacturers including quite a few that made ball valves. Free Cutting brass rod, alloy 360, is used to make the balls in ball valves. It has a machinability rating of 100%. It is used both because of its low cost and its fantastic machinability. I know of no other copper base alloy that is used for the balls.

Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc (and usually copper, zinc, and lead). Bronze is an alloy of copper and tin. Alloy 360 has about 40% zinc, 4% lead and the remainder is copper. Over the ten years that your valve was in service the zinc in the ball acted as a sacrificial annode and therefore disappeared.

Under no circumstances should alloy 360 be used in a marine environment. Unfortunately due to the cost savings many manufacturers do use it. It is now showing up even in turnbuckles. The small savings per piece for the manufacturer can mean a big cost to you. Just think of the cost if your boat sank. I suspect that even the shell of your valve had both a zinc and a lead content.

When purchasing something like a valve (or any other critical fitting) you should be very careful to determine the alloy from which the fitting was made and who made it. It is much better to pay a little more and buy a quality product that to risk your safety.



rogerw@meganet.net

[Larry DeMers]

Ball valves do not belong on a boat..they belong at home, controlling water flow or air flow from your compressor. Get a proper tapered plug valve, such as Spartan makes.
Insurance companies may take an exception to a loss that occured due to the use of a ball valve, since the ABYC is also against their use on boats, below the waterline (assuming your use would also put the valve below the waterline).

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer

About ten years ago I had an overboard through hull installed on the head exhaust and a Y valve put in. The yard in North Carolina used a ball valve which is made in Italy and distributed by Buck Algonquin in this country. The handle says "Valpres" on it. The literature on this valve says it is bronze and has a stainless steel ball, however a call to BA seems to reveal that the ball is brass that is chrome plated. The body of the valve MAY be bronze as there doesn't seem to be any clear definition of what constitutes "bronze" vis a vis brass.

That's the background, now here's what happened to me. I hauled out last week and was cleaning and lubing all the seacocks and discovered that I couldn't turn this Valpres ball valve. So I removed it and discovered that the ball was completely gone. I'm guessing that what happened is that the chrome plate wore off of the ball exposing the brass to salt water. Salt water then ate the brass ball so that there was nothing left to turn and no way to shut the valve off.

You might be able to turn the handle back and forth but not have a ball attached inside. I'd say these valves are suspect and I'd never put one on my boat again. If you have one when you're out of the water I'd suggest that you close it and then go outside with a flashlight and look up the through hull to make sure there is a ball in good condition in there.

West marine has a bronze ball valve that they say is UL approved etc., but it is not a full flow valve. They also have a full flow ball valve that they call a "sea cock" but it isn't really. It has the name Apollo on the handle and is made by Conbraco. It's a meatier looking valve than the Valpres valve and sells for around $ 80 in the 1 1/2 inch size but to me the ball looks suspiciously identical to the ball in the Valpres valve. There's more to this story than there is room to tell here, but I and another fellow are looking into ball valves. For whatever reason my ball was completely eaten away in about 10 years but there is no other sign of electrolysis on the boat and she's always had zinc protection etc.

OK now for the request. Someone said there is an article about ball valves in the December 1997 issue of Practical Sailor which rated them. I'm wondering if anyone has a copy of that issue and can either scan the article and email it to me or failing that can read the article and fill me in on the findings especially any concerning the Valpres or Conbraco valves. If anyone is interested I have some additional information that I can pass along if you write me directly.

The wx is in the 70s out here and there were a lot of boats out sailing this past week. It's beginning to look like summer!

demers@sgi.com

[Warren Kaplan]

I found your comments on brass and bronze very informative. Especially the remarks about zinc acting as a sacrificial anode leading to the ultimate demise of the brass fitting. You also talked about different alloys. My question will take your comments one step further. Are there different grades and/or alloys of bronze? If so, which grades and alloys are acceptable for marine use (fresh and salt water) and which are not? Are there any grades that may be acceptible for limited use. For instance, a specific type of bronze used in a seacock, which to my mind is really not load bearing, may be okay for the seacock but not okay for a load bearing cleat or turnbuckle. Any comments will be appreciated and could save many of us from some sea going calamity.
Thanks,
Warren
S/V Sine Qua Non
Cd27 #166 (1980)



Setsail728@aol.com

[Tom]

I found your comments on brass and bronze very informative. Especially the remarks about zinc acting as a sacrificial anode leading to the ultimate demise of the brass fitting. You also talked about different alloys. My question will take your comments one step further. Are there different grades and/or alloys of bronze? If so, which grades and alloys are acceptable for marine use (fresh and salt water) and which are not? Are there any grades that may be acceptible for limited use. For instance, a specific type of bronze used in a seacock, which to my mind is really not load bearing, may be okay for the seacock but not okay for a load bearing cleat or turnbuckle. Any comments will be appreciated and could save many of us from some sea going calamity.
Thanks,
Warren
S/V Sine Qua Non
Cd27 #166 (1980)

Warren, Here's some info on bronze alloys:

> Strictly speaking bronze is a copper-tin alloy. However, the term
'bronze'
> is widely used and can also be applied to certain brasses, some of which
> contain no tin. This may lead to some confusion when specifying
materials.
> It is more accurate to specify materials with a recognised national
material
> designation, in USA this means the Unified Numbering System (UNS). Copper
> and copper alloys are thus designated with a 'C' followed by five digits.
>
> For sea water applications I think we would expect a significant tin
content
> in the alloy composition, as in 'naval and admiralty brasses'. The tin
> content will improve the corrosion resistance of the alloy, especially in
> sea water. A tin content of 0.4% would possibly be at the very lowest end
> of a tin range in a naval brass.
>
> The composition you give might fit a number of wrought materials. It
should
> be possible to obtain a material designation from the manufacturers, or
from
> Buck Algonquin, this would enable us to translate into either UK or US
terms
> and make a recommendation as to whether the alloy is particularly suited
to
> sea water application.
>
> It would be worth noting the details for CDA inc.
> Copper Development Association Inc
> 260 Madison Avenue
> New York, NY 10016
> Tel: (212) 251 7200
> Fax: (212) 251 7234
> E-mail: agkiretasr@cda.copper.org
> Website: www.copper.org
> Contact: Mr Andy Kireta
>
> Regards
> Nicholas Hay
> Copper Development Association
> Verulam Industrial Estate
> 224 London Road
> St Albans
> Herts
> AL1 1AQ
> Tel: +44 1727 731200
> Email: copperdev@compuserve.com

Incidentally the Valpres valves are:

59.1 copper
2.3 lead
0.4 tin
0.2 nickle
0.4 iron
37.6 zinc
>
>
>
>




TomCambria@mindspring.com

[Catherine Monaghan]

Tom,

Use seacocks, valves manufactured specifically for the marine environment.

Our CD32 has her original Spartan bronze seacocks. They are in near perfect condition after 15 years. We, and the original owner, have maintained them meticulously and they operate flawlessly.

Stay away from brass, especially for use below the waterline.


catherine_monaghan@merck.com
CD32 <a href="http://www.hometown.aol.com/bcomet/real ... ization</a>, #3
Rahway, NJ
Raritan Bay

About ten years ago I had an overboard through hull installed on the head exhaust and a Y valve put in. The yard in North Carolina used a ball valve which is made in Italy and distributed by Buck Algonquin in this country. The handle says "Valpres" on it. The literature on this valve says it is bronze and has a stainless steel ball, however a call to BA seems to reveal that the ball is brass that is chrome plated. The body of the valve MAY be bronze as there doesn't seem to be any clear definition of what constitutes "bronze" vis a vis brass.

That's the background, now here's what happened to me. I hauled out last week and was cleaning and lubing all the seacocks and discovered that I couldn't turn this Valpres ball valve. So I removed it and discovered that the ball was completely gone. I'm guessing that what happened is that the chrome plate wore off of the ball exposing the brass to salt water. Salt water then ate the brass ball so that there was nothing left to turn and no way to shut the valve off.

You might be able to turn the handle back and forth but not have a ball attached inside. I'd say these valves are suspect and I'd never put one on my boat again. If you have one when you're out of the water I'd suggest that you close it and then go outside with a flashlight and look up the through hull to make sure there is a ball in good condition in there.

West marine has a bronze ball valve that they say is UL approved etc., but it is not a full flow valve. They also have a full flow ball valve that they call a "sea cock" but it isn't really. It has the name Apollo on the handle and is made by Conbraco. It's a meatier looking valve than the Valpres valve and sells for around $ 80 in the 1 1/2 inch size but to me the ball looks suspiciously identical to the ball in the Valpres valve. There's more to this story than there is room to tell here, but I and another fellow are looking into ball valves. For whatever reason my ball was completely eaten away in about 10 years but there is no other sign of electrolysis on the boat and she's always had zinc protection etc.

OK now for the request. Someone said there is an article about ball valves in the December 1997 issue of Practical Sailor which rated them. I'm wondering if anyone has a copy of that issue and can either scan the article and email it to me or failing that can read the article and fill me in on the findings especially any concerning the Valpres or Conbraco valves. If anyone is interested I have some additional information that I can pass along if you write me directly.

The wx is in the 70s out here and there were a lot of boats out sailing this past week. It's beginning to look like summer!

catherine_monaghan@merck.com

[Bristol Bronze]

I found your comments on brass and bronze very informative. Especially the remarks about zinc acting as a sacrificial anode leading to the ultimate demise of the brass fitting. You also talked about different alloys. My question will take your comments one step further. Are there different grades and/or alloys of bronze? If so, which grades and alloys are acceptable for marine use (fresh and salt water) and which are not? Are there any grades that may be acceptible for limited use. For instance, a specific type of bronze used in a seacock, which to my mind is really not load bearing, may be okay for the seacock but not okay for a load bearing cleat or turnbuckle. Any comments will be appreciated and could save many of us from some sea going calamity.
Thanks,
Warren
S/V Sine Qua Non
Cd27 #166 (1980)

Dear Warren,

There are dozens of alloys of Bronze. Not all of the metals that certain manufacturers call "Bronze" are really a bronze. Since the word bronze has more sales appeal than brass there are some manufacturers that will call anything that they make "Bronze".

For a metal to be a true "Bronze" it must have a tin content. To be suitable for marine use the metal should not have a zonc or lead content. These are the two metals that will give you trouble. Unfortunately the addition of these two metals reduces the manufacturing cost by lowering the melting temp. , improving the machinability, and making polishing easier.

The best Bronze alloys for marine use are Silicon Bronze, Phosphor Bronze, Aluminum Bronze, Nickel Aluminum Bronze, and Tobin Bronze. When I was with Chase Brass and Copper I sold a good volume of aluminum bronze and Tobin Bronze to Electric Boat in Connecticut for use in submarines.

When purchasing an important marine fitting it is best to find out both the manufacturer and the alloying elements. Any U.S. company will have to provide you with the mechanical, chemical, and physical properties of their alloys as well as the SAE and ASTM specification numbers. The CD Builder's Plates that I make are in Silicon Bronze which is CDA alloy 655.

If you have any detailed questions I can be reached at 401-625-5224.

Roger W.
Bristol Bronze



rogerw@meganet.net

[Russell]

Just curious ..

[Warren Kaplan]

Roger,
I think I'll print your reply out and keep it so I'll know what to look for. I take it the Bristol Bronze Catalog of fittings that you mailed me when I got my builders plate shows fittings of silicon bronze or its equal. Thanks again for your explanation.
Warren



Setsail728@aol.com

[John R.]

I think there may be some confusion going on here about ball valves. There are specific ball valve seacocks made by Conbraco, the Apollo series "seacocks" which are UL (Underwriters Laboratories) approved as marine seacocks. These are not the same valves as the other Conbraco Apollo ball valves that are simply inline barrel style valve bodies. The seacock valves have a bolt through flange just like a Spartan, Groco, Wilcox or Perko. The balls are chrome plated "bronze" in the seacock valves not brass.

The regular system ball valves use "brass" balls. This has been misunderstood by many for years. I recall a post by someone awhile back that said they couldn't get a thru hull to thread properly into their ball valve. That's because they did not use the NPS straight threaded seacock valve, they obviously used a systems valve with a NPT tapered thread not applicable for seacock use. There is absolutely nothing wrong with using a true "ball valve seacock", just be careful and don't accidently use a regular system ball valve. Because the name Apollo appears on both I think is the reason mistakes are made.

Tom,

Use seacocks, valves manufactured specifically for the marine environment.

Our CD32 has her original Spartan bronze seacocks. They are in near perfect condition after 15 years. We, and the original owner, have maintained them meticulously and they operate flawlessly.

Stay away from brass, especially for use below the waterline.


catherine_monaghan@merck.com
CD32 <a href="http://www.hometown.aol.com/bcomet/real ... ization</a>, #3
Rahway, NJ
Raritan Bay

About ten years ago I had an overboard through hull installed on the head exhaust and a Y valve put in. The yard in North Carolina used a ball valve which is made in Italy and distributed by Buck Algonquin in this country. The handle says "Valpres" on it. The literature on this valve says it is bronze and has a stainless steel ball, however a call to BA seems to reveal that the ball is brass that is chrome plated. The body of the valve MAY be bronze as there doesn't seem to be any clear definition of what constitutes "bronze" vis a vis brass.

That's the background, now here's what happened to me. I hauled out last week and was cleaning and lubing all the seacocks and discovered that I couldn't turn this Valpres ball valve. So I removed it and discovered that the ball was completely gone. I'm guessing that what happened is that the chrome plate wore off of the ball exposing the brass to salt water. Salt water then ate the brass ball so that there was nothing left to turn and no way to shut the valve off.

You might be able to turn the handle back and forth but not have a ball attached inside. I'd say these valves are suspect and I'd never put one on my boat again. If you have one when you're out of the water I'd suggest that you close it and then go outside with a flashlight and look up the through hull to make sure there is a ball in good condition in there.

West marine has a bronze ball valve that they say is UL approved etc., but it is not a full flow valve. They also have a full flow ball valve that they call a "sea cock" but it isn't really. It has the name Apollo on the handle and is made by Conbraco. It's a meatier looking valve than the Valpres valve and sells for around $ 80 in the 1 1/2 inch size but to me the ball looks suspiciously identical to the ball in the Valpres valve. There's more to this story than there is room to tell here, but I and another fellow are looking into ball valves. For whatever reason my ball was completely eaten away in about 10 years but there is no other sign of electrolysis on the boat and she's always had zinc protection etc.

OK now for the request. Someone said there is an article about ball valves in the December 1997 issue of Practical Sailor which rated them. I'm wondering if anyone has a copy of that issue and can either scan the article and email it to me or failing that can read the article and fill me in on the findings especially any concerning the Valpres or Conbraco valves. If anyone is interested I have some additional information that I can pass along if you write me directly.

The wx is in the 70s out here and there were a lot of boats out sailing this past week. It's beginning to look like summer!

[Bill Bloxham]

Do you have a part number and manufacturer / dealer contact for that UL listed part?
Bill



mmmmmmbill@aol.com

[Russell]

.

[Bristol Bronze]

Roger,
I think I'll print your reply out and keep it so I'll know what to look for. I take it the Bristol Bronze Catalog of fittings that you mailed me when I got my builders plate shows fittings of silicon bronze or its equal. Thanks again for your explanation.
Warren

Dear Warren,

Most, but not all, of the fittings that we make are in Silicon Bronze. It is a good alloy, reasonably strong, very corrosion and abrasion resistant and readily available. Where the need dictates I also use phosphor bronze, Tobin Bronze, Gun Metal, and my new alloy, High Tensile Bronze which is stronger than stainless steel. Just as you would use different woods in different applications on on a wooden boat you should use a different bronze for the various applications on any boat.

Roger W.



rogerw@meganet.net

[Olli Wendelin]

Ball valves work well as hull valves. They have been used on submarines for over 40 years.

The problem is with quality of materials. When I go into a typical marine store I see brass and bronze fittings intermixed on the shelves. Ever found a rusty nut in a bin of stainless fasteners at the hardware store? When the Navy (or Electric Boat) buys a hull valve they get a stack of papers with it which trace the manufacture back to the heat of metal each part was machined from. This is done because it has been proven that when a hull valve on a sub breaks, most, if not all of the people on the sub die.

The point is, when you buy an important part, like a hull valve, you should get a quality product. This may require you to buy straight from the manufacturer, rather than a retailer. And the manufacturer should be able to convince you that they are selling you the right part for the job. Good hull valves, ball or tapered plug, are available, just maybe not at the corner store.

Olli Wendelin
BLUE MOON
Charleston, SC



wendelin@spawar.navy.mil

[John R.]

Do you have a part number and manufacturer / dealer contact for that UL listed part?
Bill

Bill,
I don't have those numbers on hand but check with your local marine distribution supplier or try West, Boat US, Defender or similar. I'm sure they stock them. Conbraco Apollo is the brand. They make different series of valves and seacocks.