I have been mulling on cockpit drains for some time; I even bought a couple of extra seacocks with an idea towards a modification of the Cape Dory system. I thought I might be able to add "T"s to the standard drain hoses, "Y" the outputs together and run a hose to a new seacock in the transom. Another idea is to put seacocks athawartship and run from each "T" to the respective side. This solution is a bit problematic since it is not reasonable to make a straight shot on the starboard side through the quarter berth.
What bothers me about the standard set up is that the seacocks, below the water line, must be left open when the boat is tied up. This seems like a very weak link even though it has worked now for some 18 years. Wooden plugs don't help much if you aren't there to punch them home at the appropriate time. All the other seacocks are closed on leaving the boat. Now I know that rain and snow and ice trapped in the cockpit can cause a big problem, but what would be wrong with adding one or two drains above the waterline that could be left open while the below-the-waterline seacocks were closed?
I think one result would be that with the exception of heavy weather sailing, the main drains would remain closed. That might lead to them freezing in the closed position for a variety of reasons. However, my guess is most of us don't check them very often and we don't know if we can close our open seacocks each time we leave the dock.
I have two Spartan 1 1/4" seacocks in hand and a thought to replumbing soon. It is certainly time to replace the main drain hoses. Any thoughts on this would be most appreciated.
Ken
S/V Parfait
Raleigh, NC
parfait@nc.rr.com
Cockpit Drains
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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Dale W.
Re: Cockpit Drains
Ken, I share your mulling, and think I like your idea. The following elements also bear:
1) The Typhoon thread concerning cockpit drain/valve/hose options got me thinking. There is a case for straight hose and no shutoff hardware. (i.e., they need to be open when you are gone and closing is only a good option if you are onboard and you damage the hose. Why not insure your safety with high quality, well installed, frequently inspected hose only?
2) The two most recent "oops-the-boat-just-sank" incidents at our local marina were old hoses giving way (one engine inlet and one sink drain).
3) On a former boat (Oysterman 23 Skipjack) the cockpit drains would backflow with more than 2 people in the boat. So, closing them for an afternoon daysail was "normal." No problem until left closed and return next weekend to a nice bathtub of water no higher than the bottom of the companion way . . . not a problem on the CD.
So, your solution avoids all the problems. I'd locate the above water drain with primary emphasis on ease if hose inspection and replacement.
majortest@earthlink.net
1) The Typhoon thread concerning cockpit drain/valve/hose options got me thinking. There is a case for straight hose and no shutoff hardware. (i.e., they need to be open when you are gone and closing is only a good option if you are onboard and you damage the hose. Why not insure your safety with high quality, well installed, frequently inspected hose only?
2) The two most recent "oops-the-boat-just-sank" incidents at our local marina were old hoses giving way (one engine inlet and one sink drain).
3) On a former boat (Oysterman 23 Skipjack) the cockpit drains would backflow with more than 2 people in the boat. So, closing them for an afternoon daysail was "normal." No problem until left closed and return next weekend to a nice bathtub of water no higher than the bottom of the companion way . . . not a problem on the CD.
So, your solution avoids all the problems. I'd locate the above water drain with primary emphasis on ease if hose inspection and replacement.
majortest@earthlink.net
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sloopjohnl
Re: Cockpit Drains
will you be able to locate the overboard drains high enough to avoid back-siphoning when heeled or in following seas if using straight hose? or will you still need valves for those instances?
Ken Coit wrote: I have been mulling on cockpit drains for some time; I even bought a couple of extra seacocks with an idea towards a modification of the Cape Dory system. I thought I might be able to add "T"s to the standard drain hoses, "Y" the outputs together and run a hose to a new seacock in the transom. Another idea is to put seacocks athawartship and run from each "T" to the respective side. This solution is a bit problematic since it is not reasonable to make a straight shot on the starboard side through the quarter berth.
What bothers me about the standard set up is that the seacocks, below the water line, must be left open when the boat is tied up. This seems like a very weak link even though it has worked now for some 18 years. Wooden plugs don't help much if you aren't there to punch them home at the appropriate time. All the other seacocks are closed on leaving the boat. Now I know that rain and snow and ice trapped in the cockpit can cause a big problem, but what would be wrong with adding one or two drains above the waterline that could be left open while the below-the-waterline seacocks were closed?
I think one result would be that with the exception of heavy weather sailing, the main drains would remain closed. That might lead to them freezing in the closed position for a variety of reasons. However, my guess is most of us don't check them very often and we don't know if we can close our open seacocks each time we leave the dock.
I have two Spartan 1 1/4" seacocks in hand and a thought to replumbing soon. It is certainly time to replace the main drain hoses. Any thoughts on this would be most appreciated.
Ken
S/V Parfait
Raleigh, NC
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Ken Coit
Re: Cockpit Drains
First, I plan to use a seacock regardless of how high the outlet is. I want to be able to shut the hole if necessary. Secondly, I think the cockpit deck of the 36 is fairly high above the water line. We don't currently get any sloshing from the existing drains under normal conditions and the added drain will be higher. If I were to fit the drain hoses separately and run each one to the opposite side rather than the transom, then there should be little chance of bringing the sea in even if the seacocks were open. To stop the occassional slosh from a following sea if I fit a single hose to the transom, it might be a good idea to fit a check valve to minimize the sloshing.
Am I missing something? Does anyone else have thoughts on this?
Thanks,
Ken
parfait@nc.rr.com
Am I missing something? Does anyone else have thoughts on this?
Thanks,
Ken
sloopjohnl wrote: will you be able to locate the overboard drains high enough to avoid back-siphoning when heeled or in following seas if using straight hose? or will you still need valves for those instances?
parfait@nc.rr.com
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Bill Bloxham
Re: Cockpit Drains
Are you assuming your entire new drain system is above the loaded waterline?
Why not add a second set of scuppers and divert the water over the side with them. Keep the outlet above the loaded waterline, use seacocks, keep your hose runs short and you will have a more sound system.
I beleive the hose clamps are the weak link. When you add those T's you add lots of hose clamps.
See Nick Nickersons' journels in Practical Sailor regarding hose clamps.
Bill
mmmmmmbill@aol.com
Why not add a second set of scuppers and divert the water over the side with them. Keep the outlet above the loaded waterline, use seacocks, keep your hose runs short and you will have a more sound system.
I beleive the hose clamps are the weak link. When you add those T's you add lots of hose clamps.
See Nick Nickersons' journels in Practical Sailor regarding hose clamps.
Bill
mmmmmmbill@aol.com
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Ken Coit
Re: Cockpit Drains
Bill,
Yes, completely above the loaded WL, just to drain the cockpit when she's tied up. A set of scuppers would be a problem, but one in the middle of the two existing scuppers would be easy and effective enough for rainwater. A short run to port would be easy, aft longer, and to starboard nearly impossible. I agree with you on the hose clamps, although I think they would be high relative to the water line and those seacocks would be closed most of the time, especially when no one was on board.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Ken
parfait@nc.rr.com
Yes, completely above the loaded WL, just to drain the cockpit when she's tied up. A set of scuppers would be a problem, but one in the middle of the two existing scuppers would be easy and effective enough for rainwater. A short run to port would be easy, aft longer, and to starboard nearly impossible. I agree with you on the hose clamps, although I think they would be high relative to the water line and those seacocks would be closed most of the time, especially when no one was on board.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Ken
Bill Bloxham wrote: Are you assuming your entire new drain system is above the loaded waterline?
Why not add a second set of scuppers and divert the water over the side with them. Keep the outlet above the loaded waterline, use seacocks, keep your hose runs short and you will have a more sound system.
I beleive the hose clamps are the weak link. When you add those T's you add lots of hose clamps.
See Nick Nickersons' journels in Practical Sailor regarding hose clamps.
Bill
parfait@nc.rr.com
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John Vigor
Re: Cockpit Drains
Ken, many boats have drains exiting through the aft cockpit bulkhead, level with the cockpit floor, and carrying the discharge to through-hull fittings in the transom a few inches above the waterline. The discharge pipe can either be a dedicated fiberglass tube or the usual hose. I had a Lavranos-designed 31-footer once that had that arrangement, and I never had any trouble with waves hitting the stern tracking back up into the cockpit. If that ever is a problem, it's simple to fit a small hinged flap over the exit.
When Patrick Childress beefed up his Catalina 27 for a circumnavigation, he improved cockpit drainage by installing four large hoses leading downward between the aft end of the cockpit and the transom. There were through-hull fittings at each end of each pipe.
The glory of this system is that even if a hose perishes, the boat won't sink. And there's no need for expensive seacocks. The only thing I ever wondered about was how fast these drains would discharge if the boat were pooped and the cockpit filled with water. Obviously drainage would be a lot slower, and there might be no drainage at all if the cockpit floor were sunk to the level of the water outside--but I guess that applies to all drains.
Remember that many racing sailboats have cockpits with no aft bulkhead at all--any water that comes in just flows out aft over the cockpit floor, and in a big hurry. Drains in the aft bulkhead are just a smaller version of that idea, although you can make them as big as you like.
John Vigor
CD25D #73, Jabula
jvigor@qwest.net
When Patrick Childress beefed up his Catalina 27 for a circumnavigation, he improved cockpit drainage by installing four large hoses leading downward between the aft end of the cockpit and the transom. There were through-hull fittings at each end of each pipe.
The glory of this system is that even if a hose perishes, the boat won't sink. And there's no need for expensive seacocks. The only thing I ever wondered about was how fast these drains would discharge if the boat were pooped and the cockpit filled with water. Obviously drainage would be a lot slower, and there might be no drainage at all if the cockpit floor were sunk to the level of the water outside--but I guess that applies to all drains.
Remember that many racing sailboats have cockpits with no aft bulkhead at all--any water that comes in just flows out aft over the cockpit floor, and in a big hurry. Drains in the aft bulkhead are just a smaller version of that idea, although you can make them as big as you like.
John Vigor
CD25D #73, Jabula
jvigor@qwest.net
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Ken Coit
Re: Cockpit Drains
John,
Thanks for you comments. After a bad experience with a Catalina 22 cockpit filling while on a trailer, I added a large cockpit to transom drain with a flap. It worked fine and I was no longer subject to the whims of the yard and nature regarding the cockpit filling or the trailer being properly blocked. To finish the story, I should say that the main drains were blocked with leaves, the cockpit filled until the trailer tilted back, the water entered the cockpit lockers, and drained to the bilge. Fortunately, it didn't freeze before we got to it. Lots of lessons here, I won't enumerate them all.
As for the CD-36, I think that when the boat is on her lines, the cockpit drains forward. Since all I really want to do is have the cockpit drain when the main drains are closed, no one is on board, and it is raining, it is probably best to have the drains at the bridge deck rather than the lazarette. In the event of a pooping, I don't expect the added drain to be the main relief, so major drain capacity at the aft end of the cockpit isn't my primary concern. It would certainly be easier to run the drain from the aft end of the cockpit, but I think I might end up with an inch of water on deck all the time, save evaporation or opening the main drains.
Once we have an additional cockpit drain, the next step will be to figure out how to reach the port drain seacock in anything but an emergency. There has to be a better way than growing six-foot arms. Actually, my emergency access plan isn't much better than that, but you undoubtedly detect my lack of enthusiasm for working that seacock regularly. Does anyone have an idea for this?
Thanks again for your insights.
Ken
parfait@nc.rr.com
Thanks for you comments. After a bad experience with a Catalina 22 cockpit filling while on a trailer, I added a large cockpit to transom drain with a flap. It worked fine and I was no longer subject to the whims of the yard and nature regarding the cockpit filling or the trailer being properly blocked. To finish the story, I should say that the main drains were blocked with leaves, the cockpit filled until the trailer tilted back, the water entered the cockpit lockers, and drained to the bilge. Fortunately, it didn't freeze before we got to it. Lots of lessons here, I won't enumerate them all.
As for the CD-36, I think that when the boat is on her lines, the cockpit drains forward. Since all I really want to do is have the cockpit drain when the main drains are closed, no one is on board, and it is raining, it is probably best to have the drains at the bridge deck rather than the lazarette. In the event of a pooping, I don't expect the added drain to be the main relief, so major drain capacity at the aft end of the cockpit isn't my primary concern. It would certainly be easier to run the drain from the aft end of the cockpit, but I think I might end up with an inch of water on deck all the time, save evaporation or opening the main drains.
Once we have an additional cockpit drain, the next step will be to figure out how to reach the port drain seacock in anything but an emergency. There has to be a better way than growing six-foot arms. Actually, my emergency access plan isn't much better than that, but you undoubtedly detect my lack of enthusiasm for working that seacock regularly. Does anyone have an idea for this?
Thanks again for your insights.
Ken
John Vigor wrote: Ken, many boats have drains exiting through the aft cockpit bulkhead, level with the cockpit floor, and carrying the discharge to through-hull fittings in the transom a few inches above the waterline. The discharge pipe can either be a dedicated fiberglass tube or the usual hose. I had a Lavranos-designed 31-footer once that had that arrangement, and I never had any trouble with waves hitting the stern tracking back up into the cockpit. If that ever is a problem, it's simple to fit a small hinged flap over the exit.
When Patrick Childress beefed up his Catalina 27 for a circumnavigation, he improved cockpit drainage by installing four large hoses leading downward between the aft end of the cockpit and the transom. There were through-hull fittings at each end of each pipe.
The glory of this system is that even if a hose perishes, the boat won't sink. And there's no need for expensive seacocks. The only thing I ever wondered about was how fast these drains would discharge if the boat were pooped and the cockpit filled with water. Obviously drainage would be a lot slower, and there might be no drainage at all if the cockpit floor were sunk to the level of the water outside--but I guess that applies to all drains.
Remember that many racing sailboats have cockpits with no aft bulkhead at all--any water that comes in just flows out aft over the cockpit floor, and in a big hurry. Drains in the aft bulkhead are just a smaller version of that idea, although you can make them as big as you like.
John Vigor
CD25D #73, Jabula
parfait@nc.rr.com
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M.R. Bober
Re: Cockpit Drains
Ken, the above the waterline through the transom cockpit scuppers, as described by John Vigor, are a feature of the CD330. Both of the through hulls have a rubber-like flapper to prevent a following sea from filling the cockpit. While I haven't had RESPITE in any serious seas, I expect that the drainage will be adequate (although I would have preferred larger diameter through hulls.
MAJOR BONUS!!! This past weekend was the annual seacock maintenance festival on RESPITE. RESPITE is a walk in the park compared to TIA MARI (our former CD27) especially the cockpit scuppers' seacocks. The major benefit of the through the transom system is TWO FEWER SEACOCKS. My hands and arms (to say nothing of my back) while good and sore are still in better shape than they would be after two additional seacocks.
Every best wish.
Mitchell Bober
RESPITE
CD330
MAJOR BONUS!!! This past weekend was the annual seacock maintenance festival on RESPITE. RESPITE is a walk in the park compared to TIA MARI (our former CD27) especially the cockpit scuppers' seacocks. The major benefit of the through the transom system is TWO FEWER SEACOCKS. My hands and arms (to say nothing of my back) while good and sore are still in better shape than they would be after two additional seacocks.
Every best wish.
Mitchell Bober
RESPITE
CD330