Are they really cutters?

[Jon]

Hi All,

Are the Cape Dory cutters really cutters, or double headsail sloops? Are the masts on the CD30 and CD31 cutters shorter and/or further aft than on say, the CD27 and CD33 sloops?

What would happen if the cutter's inner stay was removed, and a big overlapping genoa was run off the headstay? Would the boat still balance? Would it still point?

Jon
CD25 Sovereign

[Tom]

Hi All,

Are the Cape Dory cutters really cutters, or double headsail sloops? Are the masts on the CD30 and CD31 cutters shorter and/or further aft than on say, the CD27 and CD33 sloops?

What would happen if the cutter's inner stay was removed, and a big overlapping genoa was run off the headstay? Would the boat still balance? Would it still point?

Jon, Aren't all cutters "just" double headsail sloops? I thought that was the definition of a cutter. Putting a boom on the #2 headsail makes it a "cutter" to my way of thinking. As far as the position of the mast goes it has to do with the centers of effort of the sail plan. It's not like the cutter police come by and measure the location of your mast and say , "whoops your mast is too far forward, this isn't a cutter, it's a double headsail sloop." Someone told me once, but I can't remember who now, that none of the Cape Dorys were originally designed with the little stubby bowsprit. After the model was built it was discovered some models carried too much weather helm so the bowsprit was added to move the center of effort forward. The 33 was balanced as designed and therefore didn't need the little bowsprit. This may be myth.

Sailors who came from sloops into cutters are often trying to figure out ways to remove the inner stay and convert cutters into the sloops that they are used to and prefer. In fact there are many posts on this BB concerning that. Don't be too anxious to do that. I was a sloop sailor who came to the cutter rig with my Cape Dory. I have learned to love the cutter rig (or double headsail sloop with a boom and club footed # 2 jib if you prefer) and I wouldn't consider going back to a sloop rig now. There are so many advantages to the cutter rig with a stubby bowsprit off the wind (which is what a cruising boat is meant to do) that they far outweigh the question of how high do they point. Polls taken among people who actually cruise their boats always show the cutter rig is preferred to any other.

Sailors who want to sail fast upwind and point high don't usually buy heavy boats with soft bilges and short cutter rigs and if they do they are often unhappy with them and start messing with the rig.

But to your specific question about what would happen if you converted it to a sloop with a big overlapping genoa, I can tell you that they sail just fine. When I bought my boat it had the designed high cut yankee jib and carried a little (I thought too much) weather helm. When I went to a roller furling jib I increased the size to a 140 overlapping genoa. She now is perfectly balanced. If I don't set the staysail I essentially have a sloop with the overlapping genoa you describe, except that it can't be tacked without rolling up the jib. But then cruising boats don't usually tack back and forth as racers do and if you get in a situation where you need to do some tacking, you just dowse the genoa and go on the self tending staysail.

These boats sail perfectly well on genoa and main or staysail and main. Will it point as high as a sloop -- probably not. Most people think that no rig points higher than the sloop rig and that's been my experience. However they do point very well and on a close reach they are unbeatable. Dead downwind you don't have to worry about back winding the jib, you dowse the genoa and the staysail gybes itself back and forth and the small size doesn't affect the track of the boat. As soon as you're off the wind even a little bit you fly the genoa and those headsails help keep her nose downwind. Then you've got a big genoa just like a sloop PLUS the staysail both with centers of effort forward of the mast -- unlike ketches which move the CE aft by flying the mizzen and to some extent blanketing the main. The staysail is too small to blanket the genoa so it's all driving force that is forward of the mast.

There's many different ways to skin the cat, but the cutter rig has won me over.

Jon
CD25 Sovereign

TomCambria@mindspring.com

[Bill]

FWIW, Edey & Duff bill their Stonehorse as a double headsail sloop in light of the fact that the main carries more than 50% of the total sail area. I dont know, just like the stonehorse and thats what their literature says.

bs

Are the Cape Dory cutters really cutters, or double headsail sloops? Are the masts on the CD30 and CD31 cutters shorter and/or further aft than on say, the CD27 and CD33 sloops?

What would happen if the cutter's inner stay was removed, and a big overlapping genoa was run off the headstay? Would the boat still balance? Would it still point?

Jon
CD25 Sovereign

cd25d@rhapsodysails.com

[len]

jon

i don't know if they really are cutters but it is a great rig - the staysail is very forgiving, doesn't start to luff until long after the yankee is flapping away - with the yankee rolled up, short-tacking is a pleasure - the inner stay is also perfect for the storm jib (one reason i haven't converted my staysail to roller furling) -

len



md.frel@nwh.org

[Tom]

FWIW, Edey & Duff bill their Stonehorse as a double headsail sloop in light of the fact that the main carries more than 50% of the total sail area. I dont know, just like the stonehorse and thats what their literature says.

bs

Bill, I'm familiar with the Stonehorse design, but haven't studied the sail plan in a long time. Is the Stonehorse equipped with a boom and club footed inner jib? A lot of the traditional designs flew a jib and a flying jib rather than a staysail.

As far as the original question goes about whether the CD 30 cutter has a shorter mast proportionally compared to the CD 27 or CD 33 sloops, I worked up the math comparing them. Comparing mast height to length overall gives this result: 27.08 is to 30.21 as 38.5 is to X. X equals 42.95. Thus if the CE 30 was to have the same mast height to overall length ratio as the CD 27 the mast height on the 30 would be 42.95 feet. In real life the mast height is 40.5 inches, so the answer is yes, the mast height on the CD 30 cutter is less than the mast height on the CD 27 sloop even proportionally speaking.

Comparing the CD 30 to the CD 33 yields: 30.21 is to is to 33.5 as 40.5 is to X. X equals 44.9. Thus if the CD33 was to have the same mast height to length ratio as the 30 it would have a mast height of 44.9. In real life the CD 33 has a mast height of 46.5 feet. Thus the CD 27 and the CD 33 sloops both have a length to mast height that is proportionally higher than the CD 30 cutter.

I'm not sure if this is meaningful or not. I wasn't aware that there are hard and fast definitions for sail rigs. It always seemed that they were kind of loose terms that people used to give one another an idea of the rig of a boat. Does anyone have a source reference that states that a cutter must have less sail area in the main than in the headsails? So if you're out sailing and the wind pipes up and you switch to a smaller genoa you stop being a cutter and become a double headsail sloop and then the wind dies and you switch to a larger genoa and you become a cutter again? I've never heard the terms used that way but I'm not a naval architect and not even the Commodore of the Cutter Association of North America I think of my CD 31 as being cutter rigged because she has a boom and a club footed "staysail" because it sets on an inner stay. Chances are a double headed sloop is an alternate way of saying a cutter and vice versa. What is a yawl but a sloop with a little spanker? Let's not go there

Are the Cape Dory cutters really cutters, or double headsail sloops? Are the masts on the CD30 and CD31 cutters shorter and/or further aft than on say, the CD27 and CD33 sloops?

What would happen if the cutter's inner stay was removed, and a big overlapping genoa was run off the headstay? Would the boat still balance? Would it still point?

Jon
CD25 Sovereign

TomCambria@mindspring.com

[Bill]

Bill, I'm familiar with the Stonehorse design, but haven't studied the sail plan in a long time. Is the Stonehorse equipped with a boom and club footed inner jib? A lot of the traditional designs flew a jib and a flying jib rather than a staysail.

Hello Tom

the Stonehorse has a boom or wishbone option for the main and a club footed jib. I Have no idea if there is a "true" definition of the differances between a cutter and a double headsail sloop. All I know is that in the brochure from E&D on the Stonehorse they call it a double headsail sloop because the main carries MORE than 50% of the total sail area.

bs

As far as the original question goes about whether the CD 30 cutter has a shorter mast proportionally compared to the CD 27 or CD 33 sloops, I worked up the math comparing them. Comparing mast height to length overall gives this result: 27.08 is to 30.21 as 38.5 is to X. X equals 42.95. Thus if the CE 30 was to have the same mast height to overall length ratio as the CD 27 the mast height on the 30 would be 42.95 feet. In real life the mast height is 40.5 inches, so the answer is yes, the mast height on the CD 30 cutter is less than the mast height on the CD 27 sloop even proportionally speaking.

Comparing the CD 30 to the CD 33 yields: 30.21 is to is to 33.5 as 40.5 is to X. X equals 44.9. Thus if the CD33 was to have the same mast height to length ratio as the 30 it would have a mast height of 44.9. In real life the CD 33 has a mast height of 46.5 feet. Thus the CD 27 and the CD 33 sloops both have a length to mast height that is proportionally higher than the CD 30 cutter.

I'm not sure if this is meaningful or not. I wasn't aware that there are hard and fast definitions for sail rigs. It always seemed that they were kind of loose terms that people used to give one another an idea of the rig of a boat. Does anyone have a source reference that states that a cutter must have less sail area in the main than in the headsails? So if you're out sailing and the wind pipes up and you switch to a smaller genoa you stop being a cutter and become a double headsail sloop and then the wind dies and you switch to a larger genoa and you become a cutter again? I've never heard the terms used that way but I'm not a naval architect and not even the Commodore of the Cutter Association of North America I think of my CD 31 as being cutter rigged because she has a boom and a club footed "staysail" because it sets on an inner stay. Chances are a double headed sloop is an alternate way of saying a cutter and vice versa. What is a yawl but a sloop with a little spanker? Let's not go there

Are the Cape Dory cutters really cutters, or double headsail sloops? Are the masts on the CD30 and CD31 cutters shorter and/or further aft than on say, the CD27 and CD33 sloops?

What would happen if the cutter's inner stay was removed, and a big overlapping genoa was run off the headstay? Would the boat still balance? Would it still point?

Jon
CD25 Sovereign

cd25d@rhapsodysails.com

[Jon]

I think it has more to do with numbers. Aside from relative mast height, Ted Brewer says if the mast is set aft of 40% of the waterline length AND she carries two or more headsails, then she is a cutter (Good Old Boat, Mar/April).

~~-~~-~~ <-- More worms from the can!

Jon
CD25 Sovereign



joring@deloitte.com