Weather/Lee helm??

[John D]

What would cause a boat to have slight weather helm on one tack (starboard) and a slight lee helm on the other (port)? Would the rig tuning be a factor? I know the port shrouds are tighter than the starboard as measured with a loos guage, and correcting that is next on my "to do" list. Just curious, as I am still a novice and learning. Thanks.

John
s/v Mariah



john_dupras@hotmail.com

[D. Stump, Hanalei]

John,

There are any number of things that could cause the effect you describe. Traveler position, hull trim(heavier one side than the other), sail trim etc. could all add to it. But the improtant thing is that slight weather helm is a GOOD thing, lee helm is NOT! Why, you might ask? Because if you fall overboard, weather helm will round the boat up into the wind and the boat will stop! You swim over, and climb back on. End of problem. Lee helm, boat keeps on going, BIG problem!

Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30

[Dana]

What would cause a boat to have slight weather helm on one tack (starboard) and a slight lee helm on the other (port)? Would the rig tuning be a factor? I know the port shrouds are tighter than the starboard as measured with a loos guage, and correcting that is next on my "to do" list. Just curious, as I am still a novice and learning. Thanks.

John
s/v Mariah

_______________

You're right John, it is the rig tuning. Besides the aft/forward direction, you have to be concerned with mast "hooking" sideways.
You want to sight up the mast it should be even and fairly straight.
Tension must be equal in opposite directions at the same level on mast. You start with the upper shrouds and end with the lowers for tuning.
For lowers, you want to adjust with oposites together...i.e. lower/port/aft with adjusting lower/starboard/forward AND lower/port/forward with lower/starboard/aft. Uppers get more tension than lowers...With each adjust "set" you want to look up that mast....step off the boat too....look at it from a distance from the side and from the aft....Then you have to take the whole thing for a sail....BTW....slight weather helm is the best and safest...



darenius@aol.com

[Don Carr]

Dana has it right. Rig tuning. Do the best you can to get the mast straight fore/aft, port/starboard at the dock but your final tuning will be in 12-15 knots of wind. Pick a port tack to start note your apparent wind (i.e windex) , note your sail trim, start with nuetral traveler car (i.e. centered) while running this course have someone at the tiller while you go sight up the mast...note any falling off or the opposite. If the mast is not straight note the adjustment required
if any for the port outer shroud. Now come over to starboard tack get on a course about 90 degrees opposite the port tack and make your adjustment to the unloaded port turnbuckle. Don't change your sail trim.
Now site up the mast and repeat your notations for the starboard
turnbuckle adjustments. Repeat this a couple of time port/starboard until you have dialed in about 3-5 degrees of weather helm.

After you have done this with the outer shrouds you may have to play a bit the lowers which controls mid mast bend. But the upper our outer shrouds are most important. One big factor in the CD25 is mast rake which there should be none rake=major weather helm.
As Dave Stump pointed out...Lee Helm is to be avoided at all costs,, Lee Helm is flat ass dangerous and will cause a round down which is not good for pacemaker driven skippers or young ones either.
Enough diatribe.



carrd48@netzero.net

[Richard Feffer]

Dave,
All very good in theory!!! If the boat stops at all, how far can you swim? Should you be lucky enough to get that far, did you remember to put over the boarding ladder before you fell overboard???

Better to stay on board!!!

Rich



RichFef@Prodigy.net

[M. R. Bober]

Years ago, the late Jim Mulhearn of Annapolis (CD25), rigged a few lengths of PVC pipe laced together with nylon line to form a ladder that rolled into a very small package. Jim tied the bundle together with very light twine in the space under the bronze winch island and secured the nylon to the winch base. He was in his seventies and frequently single handed, but felt that it couldn't hurt to have a second chance to get back aboard. I copied his design on our CD27. It worked!
Mitchell Bober
RESPITE
CD330



thebobers@erols.com

[D. Stump, Hanalei]

Good comments from both of you, the slight weather helm gives you just one more SLIGHT chance of surviving a MOB situation! The whole idea is to STAY ON THE BOAT! I would bet that in any wind or sea state, the boat will drift or go with the tidal current faster than you can swim anyway, and if it doesn't head up enough to actually stop, ya got a big problem.

M.R., how did the old sailor get ahold of the PVC ladder? I would think it quite a stretch even on a CD-30.

Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30

[M. R. Bober]

Jim used very light line to bundle the package. He could snap the string with a quick pull. He had a CD25 withrelatively little freeboard. He never knew if it would save his life, but he was willing to give it a shot. I miss him.
Mitchell Bober
RESPITE
CD330



thebobers@erols.com

[Neil Gordon]

>>If the boat stops at all, how far can you swim?<<

A boat with weather helm will definitely stop... Then fall off, go a little bit and stop again. That's lots better than a boat that falls off the wind and keeps going and going and goind.

If you can catch the boat and get on board again, you stay alive. If you can catch the boat and not get on board, you're better off than if you had to tread water. If all you do is stay in the general vicinity of the boat, you'll be easier to find.

There was a woman who fell overboard a few years ago, for unknown reasons, in the Boston area. The boat was on autopilot... boat and owner were found about 15 miles apart... she was dead, of course, by then.


Regards, Neil
s/v LIQUIDITY
Cape Dory 28 #167



neil@nrgordon.com

[Dan VanWinkle]

This discussion reminded me of an idea I had for my current 25D with a swim ladder. I thought I would rig it to be held in place with velcro, then have a lanyard from the top(bottom rung) down to the water line with a handle. Something like a water skier tow rope. Hopefully, a good jerk from the water by the MOB would release the ladder. Still may try it when I get a chance. Also thought about rigging a second (outboard) jackline on both sides. Then use two tethers, one on the deck jackline and the other on the outer. Or at least have the second to attach from the water if necessary. If rigged right the outer jackline should take the MOB right back to the stern and the swim ladder. What do you think? dvw Bali Ha'i CD#69

Years ago, the late Jim Mulhearn of Annapolis (CD25), rigged a few lengths of PVC pipe laced together with nylon line to form a ladder that rolled into a very small package. Jim tied the bundle together with very light twine in the space under the bronze winch island and secured the nylon to the winch base. He was in his seventies and frequently single handed, but felt that it couldn't hurt to have a second chance to get back aboard. I copied his design on our CD27. It worked!
Mitchell Bober
RESPITE
CD330

dwinvan@aol.com

[Catherine Monaghan]

Captain Al's Products has a nice emergency boarding ladder which we use on Realization. It consists of nylon webbing and PVC tubing to form a ladder which is stored inside a bag which has velcro at the bottom. A loop of webbing hangs from the bottom which can be easily grabbed deploying the ladder. We've got it attached to the stern pulpit. I purchased it from Defender.

catherine_monaghan@merck.com
CD32 <a href="http://www.hometown.aol.com/bcomet/real ... ization</a>, #3
Rahway, NJ
Raritan Bay

Good comments from both of you, the slight weather helm gives you just one more SLIGHT chance of surviving a MOB situation! The whole idea is to STAY ON THE BOAT! I would bet that in any wind or sea state, the boat will drift or go with the tidal current faster than you can swim anyway, and if it doesn't head up enough to actually stop, ya got a big problem.

M.R., how did the old sailor get ahold of the PVC ladder? I would think it quite a stretch even on a CD-30.

Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30

catherine_monaghan@merck.com