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My hardest-to-reach seacock, a 1.5" which feeds the port cockpit train, has become a problem. I spent 4 hours today disassembling, cleaning, greasing, and re-assembling it. After all that, I can only just barely move it with my full strength. I can close it all the way, but opening it the last couple of inches takes a monkeywrench. Further, even to achieve this (almost-impossible-to-move) state I had to leave it loose enough that it leaks a couple drops a minute into the bilge when the seacock is closed and the cockpit drain hose full of water. Is it done for, or is there something else I could try to make it more usable? I don't expect to use it much, so if it's hard to close that's ok. But I'll probably try and open/close it each time I'm on the boat so it doesn't get worse and I'd like to avoid a hernia.
The single 2 1/4" stainless steel table leg to the saloon table is stuck in place and I can't remove it from the cabin sole, which is extremely dangerous. I can wobble it back and forth easily, but it won't turn and won't pull out. Because the tubing wall is so thin and slick, I can't get purchase on it with a monkeywrench even with a rubber sheet behind it (it deforms then the wrench slides around the pipe). I've been thinking of trying something like this, but I'm not confident it would work. Perhaps cleaning with some kind of solvent first? Any other ideas that don't require me drilling through the tube to insert something?
I have no experience with the 25D but after reading what you have attempted I wonder if it may have been “glued” in place by some previous owner. I would apply heat to the base in an attempt to break the chemical or corrosive bond. If the stainless pipe sits in a base made of a dissimilar metal, such as aluminum, it may be necessary to remove it with mechanical force and replace, if damaged beyond use, with something more appropriate, if that was your intent.
You can use valve grinding compound in an attempt to resurrect your seacock. If that doesn’t work replacement is your only option. Once they are “wasp waisted” through abuse or poor maintenance they are kaput. Occasionally you can find a perfectly serviceable one for sale in our “For Sale” section. It might pay to post a “Wanted” ad.
As a long-time 25D owner, I can sympathize with your dilemmas.
That damn port cockpit seacock is terribly inaccessible. If you have access to a strong, skinny 11-year-old, you might be able to free it up easily. Otherwise, you'll have to remove the engine cover inside the port cockpit locker, crawl in and feel your way. It's a real PITA. Tap the cone free with a wooden or hard-rubber mallet, and use some Spartan grinding compound before greasing it.
The table leg might have become stuck in the socket because of the action of the bronze liner and the stainless pipe. Jim's suggestion about applying heat might free it. Also, you might want to use a large Stillson (Monkey) wrench. Whatever you do, be gentle. I've never left my table in place because it takes up too much room. I only put the pipe up when I'm eating in the cabin.
BTW, if you fold the tiller up against thew aft coaming, the table fits nicely in the cockpit and makes a nice cocktail table when at anchor or on the mooring.
Best of luck--you'll love your 25D!
--Joe
Former Commodore, CDSOA
Former Captain, Northeast Fleet
S/V Crème Brûlée, CD 25D, Hull # 80
"What a greate matter it is to saile a shyppe or goe to sea."
--Capt. John Smith, 1627
I did them this past Winter.
I bought the Service Kit from Spartan which included grease, lapping compound, a thin 15/16" wrench, etc.
I did the lapping procedure on three of them that were in various states of being hard to turn or very slightly leaking. I did the lapping procedure 2 to 3 times on each, cleaning everything between each lapping. I went through a lot of rags and paper towels.
Made a big difference. Mine were not difficult to access so that helped.
Best of luck.
Ken Easley
Intrepid 9 Meter - Felicity
Southport Harbor, Connecticut
Thanks keneasley for the link! I'll try that process next time I service them. Never heard of grinding or lapping compound, and didn't realize that there was a better grease.
Because the boat is going in the water Friday and it's 90 minutes away (and because I can close it if I really have to), I think I'll have to live with it for a season than service them in the Fall. I was thinking that I could probably find a galvanized pipe length that I could slip over the handle that might help me get a bit more leverage for now.
Joe Myerson thanks for the sympathy! I didn't realize there was a bronze pan liner down there, so that makes sense for why it might have gotten so trapped.
Joe and Jim, given that the pan liner is below the cabin sole I don't think I'll be able to reach it through the tiny bilge opening. Would applying heat to the steel above the cabin sole be helpful? It seems like it would expand the steel which would make it more stuck. Am I misunderstanding?
For now I got something called a chain wrench, which some people say is the best way to apply enough pressure around the pipe to get grip. With a solvent, some rubber, and that I'm hoping I can turn it. I'm really hoping to save the pipe because the top is tapered to fit into the table base and I'm not sure how I'd replace that.
Any suggestions on the best solvent to achieve a good gripping surface? I was considering acetone, which I have because of bottom painting.
I have valve grinding compound and Spartan grease if you want to service that seacock before launch. Let me know. I have a strap wrench that might help the table leg.
Jerry Hammernik
"Money can't buy happiness, but it sure can buy a lot of things that will make me happy."
“ I was thinking that I could probably find a galvanized pipe length that I could slip over the handle that might help me get a bit more leverage for now.“
Be careful adding leverage to the seacock handle. The bronze handle and/or tab on the end of the plug may not be able to stand up to the extra leverage.
Thanks Jerry! I don't think I'll have time to rebuild the seacock again this week, but would love to try in the fall. I'll try the table base with my chain wrench on Thursday night or Friday morning (lift-in Friday), so if you're interested in stopping by it would be great to see you!
Good tip Keith. I'll be careful about that.
camroll that's great news! Can you point me to that RV store, or provide any info that would help me find the applicable product? If it's less than $100 then I'll be much less worried about being careful.
I found it at Pete's RV in Burlington VT but I'm pretty sure that its a standard item for RV's. A quick search on RV table legs produced numerous responses such as https://www.amazon.com/AP-Products-1392 ... 3491&psc=1
What they all said about sea cocks
You can buy a new table tube at McMaster Carr. I did that on my CD25 and ground and cut the old leg. Few hours of work but not much money.
Jeff
I had to destroy the table tube to get it out of the base, and in doing so I inadvertently destroyed that portion of the bronze liner too. I probably could have saved it if I'd understood how it all fit together, but I couldn't see into that part of the bilge and couldn't find a schematic of it. Not to mention they were nearly fused together with corrosion. In any case, I'm ok with it. If I decide I want a table there I can attach a different kind of table base which is easier to remove. For now I'll put in a stopper and see how I feel about it later.
On the seacock issue, it turns out that it leaks more than I'd expected now that it's in the water. After tightening it up all the way (so can no longer move the seacock without first loosening the nut) I estimate something less than 1 gallon per hour of leakage (it's a slow trickle of water, and I'm pretty good at estimating water flow). Since I'll be keeping the boat at a mooring pin, my attention now turns to solar panels and bilge pumps. Assuming conservatively that the pump runs at 4 amps at 12V for 30 seconds every hour, my 200 AH house battery (separate from the starting battery) should be able to keep it going all summer, and a 10W solar panel which returns 40WH per day on average would easily keep it charged.
Any problems with my math there?
Then I have to think about bilge pump reliability. I'll get the part number off my bilge pump this week, but it looks and sounds high-quality and has a separate high-quality float switch. The longest I'll be away from the boat this summer is 2 weeks, and there are people who can call me if they notice the red waterline strip submerged. I'll make the rounds of the mooring field and sailing center (where I keep my dinghy) and give everyone my phone number. 2 weeks of 1 gallon per hour is 336 gallons, so enough to do significant but not catastrophic damage (sewage tank is well-sealed). Because the leak is small, I'm assuming it'll make a good filter so we won't get any large particles that could clog the pump.
Once the water is over 60 degrees, I'll dive down and plug the hole with a rubber stopper (it's the cockpit drain, so I have another and can remove it if I go offshore). So I'm primarily concerned about the next 1-2 months.
Once I get the part number of the bilge pump, I can assess its quality. So then the question is, how reliable are high-quality bilge pumps? It would be easier to replace the one I have than to get a second one. I can validate the electrical system to ensure that all the connections are solid. Is there such a thing as an almost-completely reliable bilge pump?
I'm not a cautious person, and I'm willing to accept a 1% risk that the boat would take on 336 gallons between now and July. The risk of that happening seems much less than 1%. Am I missing anything? Is there a weak link in the system?
The other issue we had is with the company that winterized the boat. They left the starter wires disconnected (and hidden from view by any angle behind the alternator) and the engine block drain open. Not knowing this, it took about 4 hours (a portion of which was upside down in the cockpit locker) of troubleshooting. Thankfully, with the wires connected the 40 year old beast started within 5 seconds and ran perfectly, which was a huge relief (and which I needed at that point with the leaking seacock)!
Anyone else who's had to manage a slow leak?
Holding my breath to squeeze into the cockpit locker also gave me another motivation to continue with my weight loss program!
Thanks again for all the help! Special thanks to Jerry who's been a Godsend!
I hate to point this out, but I think your bilge pump calculations are based on the best case scenario--that the leak doesn't get any worse, and that no other factors come into play. It's good that you are thinking about bilge pump reliability, and I encourage you to broaden your thoughts to more of a worst case perspective. Consider what may happen if some piece of debris clogs the bilge pump float switch in the on position, the pump runs continuously, and the battery dies. Think about the case where you have a lot of cloudy days and you don't get as much charge you are expecting. Usually marine catastrophes are not a single thing that goes wrong but a series of things that go wrong, and since you already have the first step in a failure chain occurring, think about all the other things that could wrong before it becomes too late to recover.
On my larger boats I always installed two electric bilge pumps, a smaller one at the bottom of the bilge that handles "nuisance" drips and a larger one higher up in the bilge but still below the floorboards that kicks in if there is a bigger leak or if the nuisance pump fails. Each pump has its own float switch, wiring, battery supply, and hosing so there are no shared single points of failure. Both pumps had a counter that displayed how often the pump ran, and the upper pump had an alarm so that if it turned on I would know it. Plus there was a manual pump just in case.
I have found float switches to be particularly unreliable and seem to recall having to replace them every couple of years. Also, inspect the wiring in the bilge where the float switch, pump, and DC supply come together. Those splices often don't fare well in the wet, salty bilge. Make sure they have been done with good quality heat-shrink electrical connections, and that the splices are held up with cable ties as high as possible out of the bilge to keep them dry.
You might consider hiring a diver to install the plug for you if the water is too cold for you to dive yourself. Another (expensive) option is to re-haul the boat and deal with the sea cock on the hard. You might try installing a high water bilge alarm that people can hear and call you (or a really fancy one that calls you itself) rather than relying on someone noticing that she is floating low on her lines. That's what comes to my mind. Maybe others will have some alternative suggestions.
On my larger boats I always installed two electric bilge pumps, a smaller one at the bottom of the bilge that handles "nuisance" drips and a larger one higher up in the bilge but still below the floorboards that kicks in if there is a bigger leak or if the nuisance pump fails. Each pump has its own float switch, wiring, battery supply, and hosing so there are no shared single points of failure. Both pumps had a counter that displayed how often the pump ran, and the upper pump had an alarm so that if it turned on I would know it. Plus there was a manual pump just in case.
I'll be at the boat today and can set up a small internal-float pump and connect it to the 12V outlet, running the hose into the galley sink. I could just set it up when I leave the boat and stow it while on the boat. That way I would have two bilge pumps. And I can see if I can find an alarm and runtime counter at West Marine. If not I'll look for one elsewhere.
I'm with Jim. That's not a slow leak. A few drops per hour or minute maybe but this sounds like something worth a haul out. Can you do a short haul? Then get some valve grinding compound and work that sea cock down. It's possible, but unlikely, that you'll grind off so much it won't seal. If that's the case, you can temporarily install a stainless washer to take up the slack. Then you can find a seacock to install at the next short haul (hopefully soon).
I don't want to be too alarmist but relying on auto pumps when not on board for anything other than just trying to keep the bilge dry seems optimistic.
Jeff
