Pedestal to tiller conversion? And is a 25D a good choice?

[dwlangham]

I'm considering falling in love with a CD 25D. The one I'm eyeing has pedestal wheel steering, and even though I've never sailed a boat with a wheel I'm pretty sure I'd rather have a tiller, especially on a 25-footer.

I found some posts about converting a CD 27 to tiller steering. Seems easy enough, especially with access to an emergency tiller fitting in the cockpit sole. Can someone tell me if such a conversion would be feasible on a 25D?

Before I get into the details of steering, I should ask I'm looking at the right boat for what I want. I'm considering the 25D is my retirement cruiser. In five years or so, I want to sail the US east coast, the Bahamas, possibly the Caribbean--maybe a circuit of the North Atlantic. Is the 25D enough boat for two people for such adventures?

Thanks in advance for your consideration.

Don

[Tod Mills]

I don't know what all would be involved in retrofitting to tiller steering, but one thing to keep in mind as you do it (if you do it) is a small situation Sam Holmes ran into with the tiller on his 28. On his boat (and probably on a 25D with tiller), the tiller connects to and hinges at the rudder stock very near the sole of the cockpit footwell. He found that when connecting the lines from his windvane self steering to the tiller, the tension in those control lines, when oriented according to the directions, would tend to pivot the tiller upwards and back towards the stern of the boat. In doing that, the control lines would go slack and the windvane would no longer be able to turn the boat. His solution was to add a pin or bolt to lock the tiller down. Some thought about how best to do that should be given so that you don't risk damaging anything should you forget the tiller is pinned and try to yank it upright for some reason. (lots of leverage there!).

I'm sure the boat is more than capable of the traveling you have in mind; it is more about how much luxury (creature comforts) you and your spouse demand and whether you would prefer a larger, heavier boat with reduced motion. The lower your demands (e.g. hot and cold running water? No need, we can heat water on the stove and use a solar shower!), the simpler your boat can be and the less time and money spent maintaining and repairing those systems and waiting in port for parts to show up. So, it is matter of "knowing thy selves".

[Steve Laume]

Having single handed my CD-30 for quite a few years, on month long trips, I would say no and no.

First of all, why buy a fairly rare CD-25D, with a wheel and then rip it out? Most of the Ds you find are going to have a tiller. I am sure the PO looks at it as an enhancement to the value of the boat. Unless it is exceptional and priced right, just look for a boat with a tiller and same yourself some trouble. If you were escaping a hostile regime in a foreign country then any boat might be the lessor of evils.

You could cruise a CD-25D in the manner you plan , with two people but it sure wouldn't be much fun. My boat sleeps one person in full cruising mode and is pretty stuffed as well as low on her lines. Cruising just takes a lot of stuff. Wind vane, auto pilot, spare parts, tools, extra fuel, extra water, down wind sails, life raft, dinghy, diving gear, fishing gear, tons of charts, cloths, bikes, large amounts of food, refrigeration, dinghy motor and gas, multiple anchors and chain. I am sure there are lots of other things I have forgotten. All of this stuff may not be necessary but even if you eliminate some or many of those items it all still weighs a good bit and takes up a lot of space. The boat would be packed, heavy and sluggish making her quite uncomfortable.

I would not even recommend a CD-30 for what you are planning. The CD-31 to CD-36 would be in the right range. The wheel makes more sense on boats of that size range but how the boat was steered would be the least of my concerns. You are not going to be hand steering most of the time anyway, Steve.

[John Stone]

I converted my CD 36 from wheel to tiller. Love it. Would not own a boat under 40’ with a wheel. But that’s me. Plenty of people love their boats with wheels.

I tend to agree with Steve L. though on this one. A wheel conversion is not a small project. And while a CD 25D is a great boat, I would want a bigger boat for extensive offshore sailing. Two on a CD 30 or Alberg 30 is tight but doable if you have the right attitude and don’t require much technology or gear.

Instead of length determining the right size boat for cruising I think displacement is generally a better measurement. For pretty good comfort I’d say 10,000-12,00 lbs displacement for one person and 12,000-18,000 for two. This is a broad brush measurement. The design itself plays a role but mostly it’s about how much discomfort you can tolerate.

My CD 36 is luxury for 1-2 people. However there are plenty of people who need over 40’ for two people and 18,000-25,000 lbs so no one size fits all.

[ghockaday]

We too do not like a wheel in a small boat. We changed our 30 to tiller. A coupling and tiller head from rig right and a couple of teflon bushings were the most pricy parts. From behind the wheel I could not reach the winches. For us an easy decision that we have not regretted. Even the guy from Edson was telling us that we would not be able to steer it with a tiller, He said it would have to be 10 feet long to get the same power. That was not the case. Dennis

Wheel to Tiller.JPG

Tiller Bearing.JPG

[John Stone]

Even the guy from Edson was telling us that we would not be able to steer it with a tiller, He said it would have to be 10 feet long to get the same power. That was not the case. Dennis

Good work Dennis. I have heard the same thing from so called professionals too many times to count. What a crock. All you have to do is look at Olin Stephens sailing 52' Dorade (built in 1929) to a win in the TRANSLANT to see how uninformed so called experts can be. Interestingly, Dorade has a new owner and has been campaigning her hard over the last 7-8 years and still collecting the silver. She is still sailing happily with that same tiller.

One of my favorite videos. You will see the tiller in action. Also, note there are still no self tailing winches. https://youtu.be/5H7cTMWEf7k

[John Stone]

And since we are on tillers. Here is a picture of “poetry in motion.” A 50’ LOD Bristol Pilot Cutter. This one is Marian, built in 1898. A real feast for the eyes.

[wikakaru]

I don't know what all would be involved in retrofitting to tiller steering, but one thing to keep in mind as you do it (if you do it) is a small situation Sam Holmes ran into with the tiller on his 28. On his boat (and probably on a 25D with tiller), the tiller connects to and hinges at the rudder stock very near the sole of the cockpit footwell. He found that when connecting the lines from his windvane self steering to the tiller, the tension in those control lines, when oriented according to the directions, would tend to pivot the tiller upwards and back towards the stern of the boat. In doing that, the control lines would go slack and the windvane would no longer be able to turn the boat. His solution was to add a pin or bolt to lock the tiller down. Some thought about how best to do that should be given so that you don't risk damaging anything should you forget the tiller is pinned and try to yank it upright for some reason. (lots of leverage there!).

From Sam's videos it looks like he installed his Windpilot control line blocks much too far aft, which tended to pull the tiller up. If he had installed the control blocks farther forward I think it would have worked fine without having to lock the tiller pivot. The Windpilot manual says the cockpit blocks "should be mounted on the cockpit coaming slightly aft of the tiller fitting". His ran to the stern pulpit and looked to be several feet back from the tiller fitting.

Smooth sailing,

Jim

[wikakaru]

I agree heartily with the "know thyself" sentiment. Buying a boat and outfitting it for cruising is an unending series of compromises, and if you don't know your own priorities, it will be that much harder to make a good choice. People like the Pardeys were perfectly happy circumnavigating on 24- and 29-foot boats, while others like the Dashews started at 50 feet and worked their way up to 78 feet. There is a huge range in between, and you need to decide what's important to you.

A couple of other factors not mentioned that contribute to how large a boat you might want for offshore cruising are your age, height, intended cruise duration, and land-based housing situation. The younger you are, the more hardship you are likely to be able to endure; the shorter your intended cruise (is this just a 1-year circuit of the Atlantic or a full-time perpetual lifestyle) the more you can stand to be on a smaller boat; full standing headroom is important for living on a boat for long periods of time, so if you are short you can get away with a much smaller boat; and, if you have a land-based dwelling you intend to return to and where you can leave much of your "stuff", you can also get by with a smaller boat.

My wife and I lived on a 34'5" 18,000 sailboat for 12-1/2 years as our only residence. For the first 12 years (in our 20s and 30s) we were perfectly content with the level of creature comforts; for the last 6 months the boat seemed to shrink by a foot every day.

John Stone is correct that displacement is a better measure of a boat's size than length is. Another thing to consider is shape: Cape Dories are relatively narrow for their length and have relatively fine ends, while some modern boats are very wide and carry the beam all the way aft, so looking just at displacement and length only give you part of the picture.

I don't know what your situation is, but if you have the time and resources, you might try buying a small boat like the 25D you are looking at. Take it for a 6-month shake-down cruise, learn some lessons and make some mistakes with a relatively inexpensive boat, and then if you decide you like cruising and want to continue indefinitely, step up to something a little bigger and more suitable for longer distance sailing and longer term living aboard.

Smooth sailing,

--Jim

[ghockaday]

I agree heartily with the "know thyself" sentiment. Buying a boat and outfitting it for cruising is an unending series of compromises, and if you don't know your own priorities, it will be that much harder to make a good choice. People like the Pardeys were perfectly happy circumnavigating on 24- and 29-foot boats, while others like the Dashews started at 50 feet and worked their way up to 78 feet. There is a huge range in between, and you need to decide what's important to you.

A couple of other factors not mentioned that contribute to how large a boat you might want for offshore cruising are your age, height, intended cruise duration, and land-based housing situation. The younger you are, the more hardship you are likely to be able to endure; the shorter your intended cruise (is this just a 1-year circuit of the Atlantic or a full-time perpetual lifestyle) the more you can stand to be on a smaller boat; full standing headroom is important for living on a boat for long periods of time, so if you are short you can get away with a much smaller boat; and, if you have a land-based dwelling you intend to return to and where you can leave much of your "stuff", you can also get by with a smaller boat.

My wife and I lived on a 34'5" 18,000 sailboat for 12-1/2 years as our only residence. For the first 12 years (in our 20s and 30s) we were perfectly content with the level of creature comforts; for the last 6 months the boat seemed to shrink by a foot every day.

John Stone is correct that displacement is a better measure of a boat's size than length is. Another thing to consider is shape: Cape Dories are relatively narrow for their length and have relatively fine ends, while some modern boats are very wide and carry the beam all the way aft, so looking just at displacement and length only give you part of the picture.

I don't know what your situation is, but if you have the time and resources, you might try buying a small boat like the 25D you are looking at. Take it for a 6-month shake-down cruise, learn some lessons and make some mistakes with a relatively inexpensive boat, and then if you decide you like cruising and want to continue indefinitely, step up to something a little bigger and more suitable for longer distance sailing and longer term living aboard.

Smooth sailing,

--Jim

If I may quote and add, if you take Jim's advice from his last paragraph, and I think it is very good advice. AND if you think you may cruise for a short while and sell her, leave the wheel or at least the ability to re-install. As much as I prefer a tiller you narrow your field of prospective buyers with one. Even with what we did, a new owner that must have a wheel, could install it back. The best of both worlds. Dennis

and on our CD30 I get tired of hitting my head.

[John Stone]

Lots of good advice by Jim and Dennis.

One advantage to starting off with a 25D is you should have no trouble selling her, if she is in good shape, after you have gained experience and decide you want to move up to a bigger boat.

A couple weeks offshore is a real eye opener about not only the boat but for you as well. What looks good on a tailored video is not necessarily the reality you experience.

[ghockaday]

Lots of good advice by Jim and Dennis.

One advantage to starting off with a 25D is you should have no trouble selling her, if she is in good shape, after you have gained experience and decide you want to move up to a bigger boat.

A couple weeks offshore is a real eye opener about not only the boat but for you as well. What looks good on a tailored video is not necessarily the reality you experience.

I read the book "ORCA" (was promoted on here) and decided that I would stay in the Chesapeake Bay. Dennis

[Neil Gordon]

We've cruised for up to four weeks in 28 feet, two of us plus 70 lbs of dog. That said, we're (non)equipped to be in every night, and we're never more than a few hours away from the nearest Sea Tow boat. We carry little in the way of clothing, spares, extra anchors and chain, etc., etc. We tow our dinghy.

I wouldn't want to do our cruising in less than 28 feet... it takes some discipline to keep the little we bring from consuming the cabin. A 25D can handle all sorts of adventures, but I think it would be a tight fit, especially with lots of extra food, gear, etc.

[Dick Kobayashi]

Two thoughts:

If you want a tiller, buy a boat with one. There are plenty.

Consider a 25D or 27 as a sort of starter boat if you wish. Much experience can be gained in a few years of coastal cruising with minimum gear and cost. For entering a more extensive cruising regime - buy a larger boat after having gained experience on a 25D or 27 or similar. The learning curve is quite steep - do much of that in a smaller boat.

Long ago an enthusiastic cousin asked me " Can that 25D go across the Atlantic" My answer " Yes, but not with me on it, I am afraid of the ocean"

Lastly read our own dear John Vigor's 20 Small Sailboats that can take you anywhere.

[ghockaday]

I'm considering falling in love with a CD 25D. The one I'm eyeing has pedestal wheel steering, and even though I've never sailed a boat with a wheel I'm pretty sure I'd rather have a tiller, especially on a 25-footer.

I found some posts about converting a CD 27 to tiller steering. Seems easy enough, especially with access to an emergency tiller fitting in the cockpit sole. Can someone tell me if such a conversion would be feasible on a 25D?

Before I get into the details of steering, I should ask I'm looking at the right boat for what I want. I'm considering the 25D is my retirement cruiser. In five years or so, I want to sail the US east coast, the Bahamas, possibly the Caribbean--maybe a circuit of the North Atlantic. Is the 25D enough boat for two people for such adventures?

Thanks in advance for your consideration.

Don

YES and Double Yes!