Leoma update 8/20

[JD-MDR]

Leaving Scorpion bay. Spent the weekend. I didn't realize last time I was here, the guys building the new dock for the park service set the island on fire. Luckily everything grows back fast. Does anyone have any tips on breaking free an anchor. I almost broke my bowsprit off getting my new spade anchor free. I got most of the slack up with the windlass then I tied it off and motored. I guess I motored too much. It was really dug in and it was very calm all night. That would be a good time to have a trip line and a windlass with a capstan . The weather was perfect coming across . Going back I started the motor half way . I get impatient if I can't make 2 kts. rebuilt Walters v-drive is still sucking oil from my reduction gear about 4 oz. in 2 hrs. I think that means the seals in the reduction gear are bad. The mechanic didn't want to get in to it that far since parts are near impossible to get. I guess I will live with it just keep an eye on it. anyway this is supposed to be a "Sail" boat

[wikakaru]

Does anyone have any tips on breaking free an anchor. I almost broke my bowsprit off getting my new spade anchor free. I got most of the slack up with the windlass then I tied it off and motored. I guess I motored too much.

Your technique is fine, it's the "bowsprit" that's the problem. That isn't a bowsprit in your photo; I'd call it a "non-structural anchor holder". It definitely isn't built with anchoring loads in mind.

I would recommend that you either move the anchor roller back to the stem and chop off the "non-structural anchor holder" or install a proper bowsprit designed to handle the loads of both the rig and the anchor tackle. Take a look at what John Stone did with his CD36 on http://www.farreachvoyages.com/beforeafter.html

It's good you're finding the problem now instead of some dark and stormy night when the boat is pitching like a rodeo bull and the anchor snubs up on a big wave, rips the "bowsprit" off, and starts beating the hull to pieces.

Smooth sailing,

Jim

[Jim Walsh]

Does anyone have any tips on breaking free an anchor. I almost broke my bowsprit off getting my new spade anchor free. I got most of the slack up with the windlass then I tied it off and motored. I guess I motored too much.

Your technique is fine, it's the "bowsprit" that's the problem. That isn't a bowsprit in your photo; I'd call it a "non-structural anchor holder". It definitely isn't built with anchoring loads in mind.

I would recommend that you either move the anchor roller back to the stem and chop off the "non-structural anchor holder" or install a proper bowsprit designed to handle the loads of both the rig and the anchor tackle. Take a look at what John Stone did with his CD36 on http://www.farreachvoyages.com/beforeafter.html

It's good you're finding the problem now instead of some dark and stormy night when the boat is pitching like a rodeo bull and the anchor snubs up on a big wave, rips the "bowsprit" off, and starts beating the hull to pieces.

Smooth sailing,

Jim

Just for clarification....are you advising that the teak “bowsprit” (as it is described in Cape Dory literature and generally recognized as such by owners) be removed? Or that the “add-on” stainless steel anchor roller assembly be removed?

[tjr818]

I have only owned one boat with a real bowsprit and the whole boat could have been lifted by that bowsprit. I believe that the intention of Mr. Alberg was for the bowsprit to move the sail area forward. In all of the drawings the bowsprit is shown as serving the tack end of the jib. I don not believe that it was ever intended to take anchor loadings, there are two very nice bronze leads for use in anchoring. I think the use of the bowsprit for anchor storage is probably okay, but the anchor rigging should lead through the bow chocks. Maybe the chain through one and the snubber through the other?? Thoughts?

[JD-MDR]

Thanks Guys. Ill not change anything yet. Try to be more careful. If when its rough ill route the snubber thru the chock. Keep the comments coming I appreciate it. BTW the original sprit did have a roller for the anchor

[Frenchy]

The snubber sounds like the best solution, J.D. - Maybe you could use that to break out the anchor too. - Jean

[wikakaru]

Just for clarification....are you advising that the teak “bowsprit” (as it is described in Cape Dory literature and generally recognized as such by owners) be removed? Or that the “add-on” stainless steel anchor roller assembly be removed?

I'm saying that the anchor roller assembly should be moved inboard, something like in this photo:
(Sorry, not a great example, but the first one I could find that shows something close to what I mean.)

Maybe the angle of the original poster's photo is deceptive, but it looks to me like the unsupported section of the bowsprit is about equal in length to the supported section of the bowsprit. In Alberg's plans, it looks like the unsupported section of the bowsprit is just a tiny stub sticking out, and the supported part of the bowsprit is 3 or 4 times as long as the unsupported part.

CD30 bow.jpg (13.03 KiB) Viewed 919 times

If you think about what will happen when 10,000 lbs of boat produces a shock load on that single point where the bow roller is...In such a scenario the roller gets pulled down, the stainless part of the anchor roller assembly acts as a lever, the junction of the bobstay and headstay acts as a fulcrum, and the holes through the bowsprit at the aft end of the stainless bow roller assembly and chain grabber act to "cut on the dotted line". It could bring the rig down.

If for some reason you were unable to modify the location of the roller, at the very least you would need a snubber or bridle run through the bow chocks to foredeck cleats to take the full anchoring loads and have the rode running through the roller have no tension at all, though that means that the snubbers are no longer just shock absorbers but have to take the full load in extreme conditions. Also, I have had a snubber part before, and if that happened you'd be back to the original problem.

A better option would be to move the roller aft between the stem and the headstay/bobstay. Best of all would be for it to be supported by the deck itself.

Anyway, to circle back to the original poster's question, to break a stuck anchor out on this boat as it is currently set up, I would haul the anchor up until the rode is vertical, reach down the rode as far as I could to put a chain hook or rolling hitch on the rode, transfer the load to the secondary line run through one of the bow chocks, then motor forward to pull the anchor out of the sea bed. That way there is no worry about breaking the bowsprit when breaking the anchor free.

Smooth sailing,

--Jim

[Steve Laume]

A little time goes a long way in breaking out an anchor. Once you get the rode, vertical a bit of throttle will usually break it free. The key word is a bit. If it is buried really deep then let some time and wave action do the work. I once read about having a cup of tea while it worked it's way back out of the bottom.

I never leave my rode in the bow roller when anchoring unless things are very settled, Steve.

[wikakaru]

I once read about having a cup of tea while it worked it's way back out of the bottom.

It must have been an Englishman who wrote that. If I tried that it would be just my luck that the anchor would break loose while I was down below brewing tea and we'd end up on the rocks.

I just found a photo of the bowsprit and anchor roller placement on my old Pacific Seacraft 34. Those rollers could handle any conceivable load they would be subjected to. Pins to secure the anchor. StarBoard sacrificial strips where things wear. Big fully captive hawse holes in the bulkheads for snubbers. To misquote Crocodile Dundee, "now THAT'S a bowsprit".

--Jim

2013-05-12 IMG_2190 Anchoring.JPG (252.19 KiB) Viewed 911 times

[John Stone]

I never warmed up visually to the plank style bowsprit. But they have been around a long time and have proven themselves tough and reliable. The Shannon sprits are similar to CD but longer and I have never heard a complaint about them. I agree with Jim “Wikakaru” that JD’s sprit looks to extend beyond the kranze iron a bit more than a stock boat. Hard to say from just the photo. JD, you mentioned it nearly broke...was there any damage or did you mean it was really stuck and you thought it might break? Any damage?

If you are not confident in it maybe you can shorten it a little so the forward end is closer to the kranze iron and still fit the roller in place? Just sort of thinking out loud here based on the photo.

Without an engine I have always broken the anchor out with the windlass...a gentle non violent process. No way to shock load anything. I don’t think electric windlass manufactures want you to do that as it’s hard on the windlass motor. But a manual windlass, without an engine in the boat, is fairly low stress on the system. As I have mentioned I often enjoy my morning coffee while cranking away on the windlass. I wonder how that will change with an engine installed. If I was to use the engine I would probably incorporate a snubber or rig something to take the load off the chain gypsy stop lever. I’m not sure. But that’s another step to what should be a simple easy uncomplicated process.

Anyway, changes to an original design require thinking about the 2nd and 3rd order effects. I think you’re going about it the right way. Ponder it some more. Be deliberate about your thinking and then determine the way forward.

[JD-MDR]

OK so maybe it didn't almost break. I was watching when it bent down what looked like about 3 inches pulling the forestay and the backstays so the whole boat shook. I was sure there would be damage. Today on inspection Everything looks OK even the stainless steel anchor roller looks fine. The sprit extends out about 50% past the deck and the stemhead and bobstay are connected about 25% more so about 10" extends out unsupported. I'm amazed how strong the plank is and that there is no damage. I built it with I think 3/4" laminated strips

[wikakaru]

OK so maybe it didn't almost break. I was watching when it bent down what looked like about 3 inches pulling the forestay and the backstays so the whole boat shook. I was sure there would be damage. Today on inspection Everything looks OK even the stainless steel anchor roller looks fine. The sprit extends out about 50% past the deck and the stemhead and bobstay are connected about 25% more so about 10" extends out unsupported. I'm amazed how strong the plank is and that there is no damage. I built it with I think 3/4" laminated strips

Wow, if those strips are 3/4", then the board must be about 9" wide. It certainly doesn't look that big in the photo "spade anchor.png" you posted up at the top of this thread. I was thinking it was about the size of a 2x6.

3 inches of deflection is quite a lot in a board as beefy as that, especially since it was being supported by the rigging. I like John Stone's suggestion that you mull over moving the whole stainless assembly aft. If it sticks out 10 inches beyond the headstay/bobstay you could easily chop a good 8 inches from the forward end of the plank. Decreasing the length of the lever arm would help a lot with the structural integrity when the anchor chain loads up. Plus it will save you almost a foot's worth of slip rent charges every time you visit a marina. As far as I can tell, the only thing that the extra extension forward gets you is keeping the anchor farther away from the hull when raising the anchor. Moving the roller aft seems like a trade-off that is well worth it.

Smooth sailing,

--Jim

[wikakaru]

Without an engine I have always broken the anchor out with the windlass...a gentle non violent process. No way to shock load anything. I don’t think electric windlass manufactures want you to do that as it’s hard on the windlass motor. But a manual windlass, without an engine in the boat, is fairly low stress on the system. As I have mentioned I often enjoy my morning coffee while cranking away on the windlass. I wonder how that will change with an engine installed. If I was to use the engine I would probably incorporate a snubber or rig something to take the load off the chain gypsy stop lever. I’m not sure. But that’s another step to what should be a simple easy uncomplicated process.

I have had both electric and manual windlasses on various boats. I have to say that of them all the most powerful one I ever had was a Simpson Lawrence Sea Tiger 555 manual windlass. The Sea Tiger 555 had two gears, and its low gear would put any electric winch I have seen to shame. I modified it with an extra-long handle that came to about elbow-height so I could easily operate it when standing upright. I don't think I ever had to use the boat's engine to break out the anchor with that windlass, though I do recall pulling the boat's bow down quite a ways when the anchor was dug in particularly well. I once kedged our 22,000 lb. boat off a shoal on a rapidly falling tide, pivoting the boat 90 degrees and literally dragging the whole boat across the sandbar into deeper water. The chain was bar-tight. Truly amazing piece of gear.

On the other hand, virtually every electric winch I've used required breaking the anchor free, at least now and then, by engine. The electric windlasses I've used didn't do well with any truly heavy lifting. But they sure are nice in a deep anchorage when you have a lot of chain out and can just push the button and all that chain comes in.

I have always thought that if you could add a cordless drill attachment to help quickly haul in the chain, the Sea Tiger 555 would be just about perfect. In the days I had that boat and windlass, cordless drills were new technology and quite wimpy. These days it would be an easy thing to do.

Smooth sailing,

--Jim

[JD-MDR]

[[/quote]
Wow, if those strips are 3/4", then the board must be about 9" wide. It certainly doesn't look that big in the photo "spade anchor.png" you posted up at the top of this thread. I was thinking it was about the size of a 2x6.
Smooth sailing
--Jim[/quote]


I didn't measure and I'm not at the boat. The strips are probably 1". The plank is about 10" wide and 42" long to the best of my memory. I don't plan to change anything. They did their job. I will use the snubber for now on when breaking loose and when the weather is rough. Maybe someday if need be I will make it better. This should last the rest of my life though.
Oh I see that photo is not very good .

[JD-MDR]

Here is how I made the snubber with3/4” nylon and Wichard chain hook. The hook has a spring loaded retainer pin. I’m not splicing eyes for the cleats cuz the strands get too unraveled. The line is old and soft but looks ok to me