Typhoon Senior Rig Tuning

[Typhoon4Fun]

This is our first season with our Typhoon Senior and I don't quite feel like I've got the standing rigging where it wants to be.

I had a Typhoon for a few years so I am reasonably familiar with the general process: center the mast, go sailing with lower shrouds loose, tighten (leeward) shrouds until uppers are no longer slack and mast is in column. Weather helm feels good to me so I am not compelled to mess with the rake. The mast looks straight to me under sail. According to the owner's manual, the upper and lower shrouds should deflect ~1" and ~2", respectively, under moderate force. The backstay should not be tightened such that you can't deflect it ~1".

I would say that's about how I've got the shrouds tuned. The backstay is a fair bit looser but I stopped tightening it because I could see some bend in the mast and I decided a take a more cautious approach before cranking it down.

In a decent breeze, the forestay seems to sag quite a bit. I've noticed this with both the working jib and genny on. I remember some sag on my Typhoon, but this seems more pronounced. From what I have gathered, in a fractional rig, the backstay does not have much to do with forestay tension, which makes sense. So my only option would be to further tighten the upper shrouds and then adjust the lowers accordingly under sail so that the mast is still in column. Should I experiment with that? Or recognize that while this is a wonderful little boat that is a joy to sail, it's not a racing boat and I should leave well enough alone?

While we're at it, I know that ideally, the spreaders point up so that they form equal angles with the shrouds above and below. The fittings on the mast have a little stem that prevents one from being able to adjust the angle of the spreaders so they seem fixed at more or less horizontal. Has anyone futzed with that?

[s2sailorlis]

How’s your mast pre bend? Not sure how the uppers would impact how the forestay reacts unless you have swept back spreaders. I’m Pretty sure swept back spreaders will effect mast bend when tightened.

Also...lots of resources on the interweb.

https://www.usspars.com/wp-content/uplo ... igging.pdf

http://www.seldenmast.com/files/595-540-E.pdf

[Typhoon4Fun]

The spreaders are indeed swept aft. And my understanding is that tension in uppers will bend the mast forward, as well as tensioning the backstay. Tension in the lowers can limit mast bend.

I have reviewed a couple different resources. The trouble is I have seen target values for mast bend as high as 1.5 times the diameter of the mast, and many resources assume you can adjust the tension of the backstay under sail and are able to release rig tension when the boat is at rest on the mooring. I doubt Alberg or CD had any of that in mind when designing/building the TySr so I am looking for some input more specific to this boat before I start cranking down, bending the mast in half and whatnot.

[wikakaru]

I have reviewed a couple different resources. The trouble is I have seen target values for mast bend as high as 1.5 times the diameter of the mast, and many resources assume you can adjust the tension of the backstay under sail and are able to release rig tension when the boat is at rest on the mooring. I doubt Alberg or CD had any of that in mind when designing/building the TySr so I am looking for some input more specific to this boat before I start cranking down, bending the mast in half and whatnot.

The Typhoon class rules specify that the backstay may not have an adjustment greater than 3 inches. I'm not aware of any class rules for the Typhoon Senior, but the Senior's backstay is 124% of the length of the Typhoon's backstay, so I would think that a good place to start would be to limit your backstay adjustment to less than 3.7 inches.

Adjustable backstays were certainly around when Alberg designed his fractionally-rigged boats. Though they weren't fitted with backstay adjusters from the factory, it's reasonable to believe that he may have contemplated the fact that an adjustable backstay would be added to the boats.

Smooth sailing,

--Jim

[s2sailorlis]

My question would how much tension is needed to tighten the forestay. Are we talking 1/2” or 1” or 4-5”. If you’re needing to adjust back state more than 3” or so I think you need to think about a new forestay.

You want some pre-bend so the forestay is reasonably tight and not sagging too much as a taught forestay facilitates roller furling.

Since the TySr was a very late model before CD went out of business, there probably isn’t a deep knowledge base of folks as there is with the Ty.

Good luck!

The spreaders are indeed swept aft. And my understanding is that tension in uppers will bend the mast forward, as well as tensioning the backstay. Tension in the lowers can limit mast bend.

I have reviewed a couple different resources. The trouble is I have seen target values for mast bend as high as 1.5 times the diameter of the mast, and many resources assume you can adjust the tension of the backstay under sail and are able to release rig tension when the boat is at rest on the mooring. I doubt Alberg or CD had any of that in mind when designing/building the TySr so I am looking for some input more specific to this boat before I start cranking down, bending the mast in half and whatnot.

[MHBsailor]

Bear in mind that rig tuning affects sail shape and center of lift - a rigger or sail shop should be able to help you understand what is optimal for your boat and sail shape. Even though the TY Senior has swept-back spreaders, I can't imagine that Mr. Alberg intended sailors to fiddle with it to the extent that racing sailors do, or to crank in a lot of mast bend.

I prefer to use a Loos tension gauge to ensure consistent and reproducible tension when tuning the rig. I usually tune it as per the manual at the beginning of the season, and don't get the Loos gauge out for at least a couple of weeks to let the rig tension settle down as it stretches following inital tensioning.

[Megunticook]

I have a TyS and tuning the rigging is definitely a challenge. I had a pro do it initially but now I do it myself. Some tips:

A Loos gauge helps ensure you get things tight enough to protect the rigging without overtightening. Slack leeward shrouds are hard on the rig.

Forestay and upper shrouds counterbalance each other because of the swept back spreaders.

Tightening the lower shrouds straightens the mast.

Backstay is less tight than everything else. Cranking down the backstay will ceeate a lot of bend. Depends how your mainsail is cut...some bend is good on mine.

My forestay is tight--this is desired on fractional rig. Mine is at 20% of breaking strength. It doesn't sag noticeably.

Shrouds are also quite snug...about 16%. Backstay 9 or ten. I've tried more on the backstay bur it just bends the mast too much.

Key thing is to think of a triangle...forestay pulling the mast forward and the upper shrouds pulling it backward.

I agree the literature online is varied and confusing. But I seem to have figured out what works for me. Sure you can do the same.

P.s. yes my spreaders angle up slightly in addition to sweeping back.

[Typhoon4Fun]

Thanks for the responses, all! My thoughts exactly, NarragansettSailor - I figure the intent was that one could get satisfactory performance without add-ons.

Since my last post, I did tighten the backstay some and that seemed to help (I could see the forestay straighten out a bit when I tugged on it before actually tightening the turnbuckle). It increased the mast bend noticeably but I figured it is safe/OK because the backstay is still much looser than the shrouds and has more play than the 1" max referenced in the manual. (photo of current bend attached). I will need to give some more thought as to how the mast been affects my sail shape.. inherited the sail from the PO so I don't know the maker's assumptions.


Megunticook - frugality and enough people saying you can get by without one has kept me from buying a Loos guage, but it would be nice to eliminate some guesswork, and your ability to get a satisfying result is encouraging. I want to tighten the upper shrouds but fear over-tightening. Why live that way? I can search the web, but any recommendations on a particular gauge?

P.s. yes my spreaders angle up slightly in addition to sweeping back.

Thanks for answering. I will examine the spreaders again this fall when the mast is un-stepped and see if I can adjust the angle.

[MHBsailor]

The challenge of rig tuning is that every adjustment affects everything else, so the initial seasonal tuning requires patience because it is an iterative process. By measuring rig tension and marking the location of the threaded swaged fitting in each turnbuckles one can keep track of tuning drift and make periodic adjustments. It's a balance - it's hard on the rig if the stays are too loose, but the manual warns against going to the opposite extreme ("bar tight"). The ultimate proof of the pudding is to make sure there aren't any stays flopping around while on various points of sail. Having said all that, I know that one of our T Senior owners was a rigger so I'm really looking forward to how he tunes his TYS

[Typhoon4Fun]

The challenge of rig tuning is that every adjustment affects everything else, so the initial seasonal tuning requires patience because it is an iterative process.

I still haven't taped my turnbuckles

When I went on a test sail with the PO I could see the mast rocking back and forth as we motored through some chop.. I definitely don't have it that loose but I don't think I'm quite tuned yet. Lowers are kinda sloppy when sailing heeled over..

Waiting with bated breath for some input from a professional!!

[Megunticook]

When I went on a test sail with the PO I could see the mast rocking back and forth as we motored through some chop.. I definitely don't have it that loose but I don't think I'm quite tuned yet. Lowers are kinda sloppy when sailing heeled over..

Waiting with bated breath for some input from a professional!!

Definitely sounds too loose. Lot of stress on the rigging that way.

Might be worth hiring an experienced pro to do it with you the first time. I was surprised how tight the rigger made mine. He did it by feel, no gauge.

Personally I like having a gauge (you can get the Loos PT-1 for about $100 https://www.defender.com/product.jsp?id=155885). That way I know for sure I'm never overtightening. Basically you never want to exceed 25% of the wire's breaking strength. I usually max. out my forestay at 20%. That's pretty darn tight, although you can certainly deflect it with your hand a bit with moderate pressure.

I'm sure I could tweak and experiment more with my rigging. Especially with mast bend. But to be honest I tend to set it at the beginning of the season, test it under sail, and then leave it pretty well alone. I may check it mid-season but not always. I definitely examine the turnbuckles frequently during the season, visually inspect everything often, and check the tightness with my hand frequently. Plus of course observing how it looks under sail.

You'll get all kinds of different opinions about rigging. I had a launch driver (who sails) once tell me my rig was too tight. And another experienced sailor tell me the leeward shrouds should be floppy. I've learned to just ignore most people and go with what professional riggers say and my own experience.

[wikakaru]

Note that which Loos gauge you need for tuning depends on the wire sizes on your boat. According to the Cape Dory manual the Typhoon Senior uses only 5/32 rigging, so you'd need the Loos PT-1. Unfortunately, the CD22 has a mix of different rigging sizes--5/32 and 3/16, which is really annoying because it requires both the PT-1 and PT-2 gauges. I haven't reached the point where I am willing to spend over $200 on rigging gauges. Maybe Santa will be nice this year...

Smooth sailing,

--Jim

[tjr818]

Note that which Loos gauge you need for tuning depends on the wire sizes on your boat. According to the Cape Dory manual the Typhoon Senior uses only 5/32 rigging, so you'd need the Loos PT-1. Unfortunately, the CD22 has a mix of different rigging sizes--5/32 and 3/16, which is really annoying because it requires both the PT-1 and PT-2 gauges. I haven't reached the point where I am willing to spend over $200 on rigging gauges. Maybe Santa will be nice this year...

Smooth sailing,

--Jim

Jim,
You can get the Loos Pt-1 for about $100 and it will do both sizes.

[Typhoon4Fun]

I've learned to just ignore most people and go with what professional riggers say and my own experience.

[/quote]

Yes it can get overwhelming. But this thread has been very helpful, so thanks again all! I'm gonna try to get my hands on a gauge. I know it's possible to estimate stress by measuring the elongation of the wire but we're talking mm's so not particularly easy to measure accurately. I think I will also check in with some local riggers about a consultation. Definitely worth getting right.

[Megunticook]

Yes it can get overwhelming. But this thread has been very helpful, so thanks again all! I'm gonna try to get my hands on a gauge. I know it's possible to estimate stress by measuring the elongation of the wire but we're talking mm's so not particularly easy to measure accurately. I think I will also check in with some local riggers about a consultation. Definitely worth getting right.

Good plan. Gauge will allow you to do it yourself or make adjustments with total confidence.

An hour aboard with an experienced rigger would also be well worth the cost. Find someone who knows fractional rigs well, as they're a special beast for sure and require special methods.

Also...sorry to bring this up because it potentially involves more $$ but how old is your standing rigging? I know you mentioned the previous owner had it way loose, which can punish the rigging. If you have any doubts about the strength of the rigging it might be worth considering replacing it next season. If you're at all handy you can even do it yourself using Sta-Lok fittings, which I'm told are stronger than swaged fittings. Or you can just give your old rigging to a reputable shop and they'll make up new rigging for you.

It's definitely one of the most important things on the boat to keep well-maintained and properly adjusted.

Good luck! Let us know how it goes.