Loose fitting rudder on shoe pin

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Keith
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Joined: Sep 14th, '12, 20:01
Location: Moon Dance 1979 CD 30C Hull # 134

Loose fitting rudder on shoe pin

Post by Keith »

Hi All,

My rudder is very loose on the shoe pin. Approximately 3/8" play and I hear a banging while sailing in lite winds (very lite). I'm sure it bangs under all conditions I just can't hear it. Anyway today I removed the shoe and the pin is in great shape but the wear is inside the rudder. I tried searching for info to see what exactly is in the rudder for a bushing but came up empty. Any info on what the bushing material is and the proper way to replace it would be greatly appreciated. Here are a few pics of my fun this afternoon.

Keith
shoe exposed.jpg
shoe exposed.jpg (121.83 KiB) Viewed 1058 times
shoe off and tools.jpg
shoe off and tools.jpg (151.67 KiB) Viewed 1058 times
Alan Stewart
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Re: Loose fitting rudder on shoe pin

Post by Alan Stewart »

Please see below...
Last edited by Alan Stewart on Mar 11th, '20, 08:22, edited 2 times in total.
Alan Stewart
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Re: Loose fitting rudder on shoe pin

Post by Alan Stewart »

By now you may well have already solved your problem with the rudder, if so, it would be nice to hear what solution you came up with... If, however, the task remains unfinished, I would suggest you consider mixing up a batch of West System epoxy and adding enough #404 high-density filler and graphite powder to thicken it enough to where it will become a paste that won’t run back out of the area you fill. You could use either a caulking tube & gun to fill the void or improvise your own “pastry bag” using a plastic ziplock. Tape over the filled area to achieve a smooth finish and sand & fair afterwards as required. Finally, drill out your socket for the rudder pin using several drill bits beginning with a carefully centered pilot hole made with a 1/8” drill bit. That should solve your rudder-slop issue.
You could also epoxy into place a bronze bushing instead if there is enough room to do so, but I would recommend duplicating the original design/construction as much as possible. Best of luck and do share your methods with the readers...
Keith
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Location: Moon Dance 1979 CD 30C Hull # 134

Re: Loose fitting rudder on shoe pin

Post by Keith »

Hi Alan,

No, I have not solved the issue yet. I was thinking along your lines of either epoxy or a bronze bushing but was hoping there was another alternative and hoping for some more responses but alas only you replied.

I was thinking filling the hole with epoxy and filler coat the shoe pin with grease (so the pin won't stick to the epoxy)and reassembly before it hardens. I think that would give a perfect fit. I was planning on doing this with the rudder still attached to the hull or I could also dig a 3 foot hole (like John Stone did with Far Reach) and remove the rudder. My thoughts are that the rudder in place would be best because it would ensure the pin and hole are in perfect alignment. Still looking for more input. I'm going to give Robinhood a call as well

Keith
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Steve Laume
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Re: Loose fitting rudder on shoe pin

Post by Steve Laume »

Epoxy is an amazing material but I am not so sure I would want to use it as a rudder bearing.

I did a quick search and found this.

http://www.cawthorne.org/Rudder.html

I am certain there is more information in the search area of this board as yours is not the first rudder to get a bit sloppy, Steve.
Keith
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Re: Loose fitting rudder on shoe pin

Post by Keith »

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the reply. I have seen that post and it is not the same problem that I have. My SS pin is firmly in the shoe and has no wear at all. I also found the post below from 2006 that talks about a 1/2" did SS pin that is glassed and bolted into the rudder (see below). This is also not how mine is setup at all. Mine appears to have just a hole drilled into the bottom of the rudder that accepts the SS pin on the shoe. The hole is worn and therefore has slop/play. What I'm trying to determine is if there is some type of bushing (composite or bronze) that should be in there? So far none of the posts that I have found talk about any type of bushing in the rudder. I've spent several hours searching.

I called Robinhood but they were no help. I'll try Spartan tomorrow.

Keith

Mike
Post subject: PostPosted: Wed 10/18/06 7:27 pm
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Boat: Adagio is an Outbound 44 cruising in the Eastern Caribbean
I had the same problem with my CD-36 Journey's End. There is a SS pin glassed into the bottom of the rudder that rides in a depression in the heel casting that is attached to the aft end of the keel. The pin had come loose within the rudder and was twisting within the rudder. This twisting wore away the sides of the hole to the point that it became oval shaped and allowed the bottom of the rudder to wobble.

My solution was to block the bottom of the rudder and remove the grudgeon attached to the keel. The grudgeon is attached to the keel with 3 bronze pins that are driven horizontally thru the grudgeon and keel, peened over and then glassed. To remove the grudgeon grind away the glass on both sides, drive the 3 pins out with a drift pin and then remove the grudgeon. Then pull the SS pin out of the bottom of the rudder.

Odds are that the pin will not be worn as the glass in the rudder will fail before the pin. However, if you feel it's necessary get a new SS pin. Before reinserting the pin knurl the end that goes into the rudder to allow the repair epoxy to get a purchase on it. Now fill the hole with epoxy mixed with glass fibers and reinsert the pin. Once it is completely cured drill 2 horizontal holes completely through the rudder and SS pin. Counterbore the holes and then insert 2 SS machine screws in these holes and put lock nuts on the opposite end. The counterbores on both ends should allow you to set the heads of the machine screws and nuts below the surface of the rudder. Be very careful when drilling the holes for the screws to make sure you hit the center of the SS pin. If memory serves me correctly the pin was 1/2" diameter and I used 3/16" machine screws.

After all this is done replace the grudgeon with the SS pin in the depression, replace the bronze pins, peen them over and glass in the machine screws and grudgeon. Touch up the bottom paint and you should be good to go.

Live slow and sail fast,
Mike Thorpe
CD-27 Lady Jane now ???
CD-36 Journey's End now Liberty
Saga 43 Adagio now ???
Outbound 44 Adagio

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Frenchy
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Re: Loose fitting rudder on shoe pin

Post by Frenchy »

Hi Keith, I've never done this repair nor do I know anyone who has, so I'm a bit rash in responding.
Anyway, here's a possible way to do this - Maybe.
You could cut a channel in the side of the rudder, running up from the bottom a bit longer than the
pin shows. Then take a bronze bushing and slip it over the heavily waxed pin. The heel fitting and
pin would be fitted into working position. The bushing would be square or octagonal on the outside
to prevent spinning. Also, it would be sandblasted or heavily scored for adhesion.
Then, clamp the bushing into the channel and glue it in where you can. Remove the clamp and
fill and fiberglass over. To glass near the leading edge, you might have to remove the heel block and
drop or swing the rudder. Would that work? I think there's not a lot of thickness down
at the bottom of the rudder, so the bushing's walls might have to be relatively thin. - Jean
Last edited by Frenchy on Mar 12th, '20, 11:18, edited 2 times in total.
Jean - 1983 CD 33 "Grace" moored in
Padanaram Harbor
Massachusetts
Alan Stewart
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Re: Loose fitting rudder on shoe pin

Post by Alan Stewart »

I apologize Keith for perhaps not providing enough information regarding the use of West System epoxy for this repair. I ought to have mentioned that Gougeon Brothers have published reports on using their products for exactly this application (making bearings that is), as I described in the prior post. The #404 additive has amazing compressive strength and is also recommended for filling areas between deck fittings and backing plates to prevent the deck core from being crushed - the powdered graphite additive acts as an anti-friction material to make the epoxy bearing “slippery”. You can contact Gougeon Bros. directly to get technical data, recommendations, and a copy of articles where this method has been tested and used successfully.
So you see, my suggestion was not speculative, as some might have you believe, but rather one based on knowledge and many years of experience with these products.
Your idea of applying grease to the pin is a good one - you could also wrap the pin with a layer of wax paper or Teflon tape to prevent the epoxy from adhering to the bronze. Again, best of luck with your efforts!
Keith
Posts: 576
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Re: Loose fitting rudder on shoe pin

Post by Keith »

No problem Alan, I fully understood what you were saying and understand the properties of the west systems epoxies as well.

I talked with John at Spartan today but he didn't know what the original CD setup for the rudder was either and did not have any parts to offer up as an alternative. John suggested Rig Rite. I checked them out and they have a glass renforced delrin bushing that Tartan uses on their 34 but the diameter is a bit to big for my pintle.

I also talked with West System and he thought that their epoxy with the 404 filler and graphite would be a good option but the 404 is out of stock everywhere due to a problem at the mine that produces one of the components. So he suggested 406 filler which he thought would be almost as good.

I'm still leaning to putting a bronze bushing in the rudder that will ride on the SS pintle. If I do the epoxy fix it will just wear again in time maybe not in my life time but that's not the point. So I checked McMaster Carr and they have a leaded bronze bushing for a 1" shaft that has an OD of 1 1/4" and is 2" long. I think this will be perfect. I'll score up the outside a bit putting some flats so that it will resist spinning after it is epoxied in. I'm still not sure if I will open up the hole and inject epoxy in then insert the bushing or cut it open and then epoxy and glass it in. I'll sleep on it and then make a decision.

I'll keep you updated with the final solution with pics ofcourse. Feel free to offer up any other suggestion.

Keith

PS John Stone if you are reading this please let me know where you got the white disk that you have on the pintle between the shoe and the rudder. Also it it really needed as the rudder doesn't come down that far due to the collar on the shaft up near the quadrant.
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Steve Laume
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Re: Loose fitting rudder on shoe pin

Post by Steve Laume »

Are you certain that the pin is supposed to be fixed in the heel and rotate in the rudder?

If you drilled a small hole in the rudder, it would tell you what is in there, if you can't determine that in any other way. If there is no bronze bushing in there then I would suspect the pin was glassed into the rudder and expected to turn in the shoe. I am pretty sure the pin rotates in the heel fitting on my boat but my memory could be faulty. There is the possibility that the pin seized in the heel and broke the bond to the rudder. Once that happened, it would only be a matter of time until the glass wore away enough to make for a sloppy fit. If this is how things were supposed to be set up then you only have to free the pin from the shoe and glass it back into the rudder.

Although an epoxy mix with graphite may work out okay, I am certain that is not how it was originally designed and I would personally not feel comfortable with that solution.

Can some of you, with your boats on the hard, please check to see if the pin is fixed in the shoe or the rudder. This might make for a much easier solution to this issue, Steve.
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Re: Loose fitting rudder on shoe pin

Post by John Stone »

Keith et al
I saw this post when it first popped up and thought you were doing fine so nothing for me to add. Plus, on some of these issues I can only describe how I did it on my boat, blah blah blah. Not all the boats are the same though often the build methodology was very similar. Plus I have been busy and mostly have had access to only my phone which makes it hard to see the pictures or type on.

For those that want to know what the gudgeon looks like, at least on my 36, click on this link and scroll down about half way. There are pictures of the shoe, the pin and the delrin disk too.
http://www.farreachvoyages.com/projects ... rsion.html

The SS pintle should not rotate. It is pressed into the bronze shoe. In the picture to the right of the one with the shoe and pintle there is a photo looking into the receiver in the bottom of the rudder. There is a SS sleeve in there that has a flat top. The top of the SS receiver rests on top of the pintle. The SS receiver is fixed in place in the rudder and the whole thing rotates on the pintle. I never determined exactly how that receiver was installed or exactly what it looks like/how designed as I could not see it since it is encased in the bottom of the rudder. My best guess is the receiver in the rudder is part of or connected to the bottom of the SS rudder post encased in the fiberglass and foam rudder. I never could tell how much of a “cup” there is to contain the pintle.

I think the epoxy ideas discussed could work as a bushing but the pintle needs to rest in the SS receiver. There is no way epoxy can support the load of the rudder if it gets between the top of the pintle and the receiver. Make sense? You also need to align the rudder receiver with the pintle carefully if you are going to encase it in epoxy. I would wrap the pintle with some clear packing tape and smear it with paste wax vice grease. Wrap the pintle from top towards the shoe so there is no lip of tape to hang up on the cured epoxy.

Jim Bircher made the delrin bushing. There is a link to his shop website in the link above. The delrin rudder does not support the rudder. The pintle is taller than the receiver is deep so the rudder is lifted up above the bronze shoe, supported by the top of the pintle. There is a small gap between the shoe and the rudder. The bushing rests on the shoe. The disk part is maybe 1/4” thick and the tube part of the bushing is maybe an inch or inch and a half tall with a slight taper on the outside surface. The top of the bushing fits into the chamfered opening around the receiver hole in the bottom of the rudder. The purpose of the bushing to reduce clunking and rattling of the rudder on the pintle. All I can say is it works perfectly. I’ve heard nary a sound from the rudder.

I took the rudder and shoe with pintle to Jim and he machined the delrin bushing to fit precisely. You could probably have one made without taking the rudder but you would have to make perfect drawings. IMO, the best thing is to take the rudder and shoe to a shop that is equipped to make one.

I’m not making a pitch here for tiler steering. But because I have a tiller I can tell you the rudder turns very easily with no noticeable friction. So, when set up correctly the rudder assembly and bearings and bushing do their job just fine.

If there is interest in seeing the pictures posted here I can do that. If not, you can see them in the link above.
Last edited by John Stone on Mar 13th, '20, 11:39, edited 2 times in total.
Jim Walsh
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Re: Loose fitting rudder on shoe pin

Post by Jim Walsh »

Great information. This forum is an invaluable resource for all Cape Dory owners.
Jim Walsh

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Ex Captain-Northeast Fleet

CD31 ORION

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John Stone
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Re: Loose fitting rudder on shoe pin

Post by John Stone »

Since I posted about 45 min ago I edited my response a little to clean up some grammar and to comment on the use of epoxy to address slop in the bottom of the rudder.
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Frenchy
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Re: Loose fitting rudder on shoe pin

Post by Frenchy »

Just checked my boat in the back yard and the pintle doesn't turn with the rudder, verifying what
John posted. Interestingly, there's no gap between the rudder and pintle block. I should probably
adjust the stop to create a small gap. Jean
Jean - 1983 CD 33 "Grace" moored in
Padanaram Harbor
Massachusetts
John Stone
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Re: Loose fitting rudder on shoe pin

Post by John Stone »

Frenchy wrote:Just checked my boat in the back yard and the pintle doesn't turn with the rudder, verifying what
John posted. Interestingly, there's no gap between the rudder and pintle block. I should probably
adjust the stop to create a small gap. Jean
Maybe I misunderstand your comment. The stop collar is there on the rudder post to keep the rudder from lifting up off the shoe in the case of a grounding etc. if I recall correctly it’s located below the pillow block and is not designed to support the weight of the rudder. If your rudder works fine I would not change it. If you wanted to create a small gap for a delrin bushing then I’d drop the shoe and have a longer pin fabricated. But you have to have room at the top of the rudder to do that.
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