Anchor dilemma for CD31 - revisited

[jen1722terry]

Hey Sailors,

We had originally posted this on the "Projects" page. Steve Laume wisely suggested we'd get more response by posting on the general CD page, so here it is, along with Steve's thoughtful comments pasted in below . . .

We know there's been a lot of posts over the years on anchors, most of which we've read through.

Our dilemma is this: we have a 25# CQR as the primary hook on our 31 which has been reliable in a variety of bottom conditions. However, the anchor is aging and needs re-galvanizing. So, we're wondering if we should do this or change to a Rocna or maybe a larger Fortress (we have a 7# Fortress 11 as backup).

FYI, we plan to add about 90 feet of new chain to our 300 feet of 8-plait 5/8" nylon rode, but not sure if this is a good idea if we go with the larger Fortress.

Our cruising grounds will be Nova Scotia and coastal New England, with a possible winter trip the the Bahamas in a few years.

Any thoughts and advice will, of course, evoke our sincere gratitude.



Steve's post:

"This post might have been better on the general forum. I can't believe you didn't get a whole lot of response on an anchor question.

The 25lb CQR seems marginal for a CD-31.

Raven is a CD-30 and is sporting a 35lb CQR with 90 foot of 5/16" chain and a couple hundred feet of 3 strand spliced onto it. I don't have a windlass so it is a bit of work to haul it all back on board but has served me very well. I went to the chain after an incident of fouling the rode and that gave serious thought to the possibility of chaffing through the nylon. Most of the time I run out the chain and enough nylon to act as a snubber and then back that up with another snubber hooked to the chain. This forms a bridle and gives me a back up for the nylon line.

If I needed to replace my anchor I would definitely go with one of the newer generation and not the Fortress. I do have a big Fortress tucked away for a storm anchor but don't believe they are any better than a Danforth for every day use. There is still that issue of not resetting.

The only reason not to go with a long length of chain would be if lifting it was a problem. 5/16" chain weighs about a pound a foot so my rig is a little over a hundred pounds. Most of the time you will not be lifting it all and it is lighter in the water so it works for me. A windlass would be nice but there are other things I would rather spend the money on and it is a good work out. With rocks or corral I would not feel comfortable with any less chain, Steve."

[JWSutcliffe]

I agree with Steve's comments. I had a 25 pond CQR on our previous CD30 and felt it was marginal. The 35 pound CQR we have on Oryx has worked flawlessly over 6 years of coastal New England cruising, with not one slippage issue or need to reset ever (including one night riding out a nasty blow anchored off Point Judith.

[jen1722terry]

Thanks, Skip,

I agree that the 25# CQR is at the top of it's weight range for our 6-ton 31. We've had good luck with it in 1400 miles of cruising the last two summers, including a long night behind Sandy Hook in a 40-knot westerly. Do date, a weak back and the usual aches and pains have dictated the lightest ground tackle we can use, hence our consideration of the Fortress, which we now plan to use for storm work in the largest size we can stow.

But sizing up one anchor is always wise, so we'll look for a larger CQR as soon as we get the new windlass installed in the spring.

Thanks for the thoughts, and do have a great holiday!

Jenn and Terry

[Steve Laume]

I have had very good results with the 35lb CQR on Raven. There have only been three times where I had trouble getting a very solid set. Two were in very soft mud and one was due to lots of eel grass on the bottom. In the two cases with soft bottom, it was a matter of letting out way more scope and then continuing to back down until it dug in. In the case of grass it was a matter of hauling it up and finding a sandy opening to drop it into. The CQR has held a number of times in 35 knots plus and once in over 50 knots. I have slept fairly well off a lee shore with strong winds on a few occasions. Endured 180* wind shifts and it has never let me down. I do tend to put out a 7 to 1 scope, even with the 90' of chain. You just get the feeling that there is no way you are going to bend or break a forged anchor with a pivot point.

All that said, if I was going to buy a new anchor, it would not be another CQR. The newer anchor designs just seem to work better. They are also more reasonably priced due to their welded steel construction. If you are going to look for a large CQR, you might check the consignment shops as they always seem to have a couple kicking around, Steve.

[Klem]

Here are a couple of more thoughts on the subject.

The vast majority of time, the only real important characteristics of an anchor on the bottom are the ability to set and then reset/shuffle when the wind shifts. This is because the anchor load is not linearly related to the windspeed, it is more like a squared relationship so you normally don't approach the load that you use when sizing the anchor. Having had experience with the Spade, Manson Supreme, Rocna and Mantus, there is no question in my mind that these anchors are far superior when it comes to setting and handling wind shifts. There are other new generation anchors that I have not tried but seem to review well including the Manson Boss, Sarca Excel and now the Vulcan. There has been a lot of debate on how the fortress does during a wind shift and I think it can be summed up by the fact that many people, myself included, have experienced this anchor breaking out and not resetting during a windshift so I consider it unsuited to use as the primary. Also, it is well known that there are some bottoms which you will probably encounter in your expected cruising grounds where the Fortress is extremely difficult to set. From this standpoint, I would definitely look at a new generation anchor.

Obviously, we can't completely ignore holding power as we do occasionally need to sit out a decent blow. The most important factors in holding power are the anchor design, anchor size and bottom type. If you look at the latest test results sponsored by Fortress in really soft mud, you will find that most 45lb anchors could not reach 1000 lbs of holding power so they would be unsuited for your boat in a storm in that anchorage even though all of the new generation anchors in that test could easily hold 5,000+ lbs in firm sand. You need to decide what type of holding power you require in what bottoms as this is very important. If you want to be able to anchor anywhere in any conditions, then you need a very large, good anchor but if you are willing to accept that there are certain bottoms where you shouldn't anchor in poor weather, then it becomes much more reasonable. The other way to look at it is a new generation anchor will have significantly higher holder power than your current anchor in just about any bottom type so you could gain some extra security without gaining weight. From a holding power standpoint, I would again look to a new generation anchor in a primary application (fortress has much higher holding power/lb than any other anchor but I consider it unsuitable for other reasons).

If you are really trying to save weight, you should look at the chain which is usually much heavier than the anchor. In New England, you can get away with relatively little chain as the bottoms tend not to abrade anchor line too much. For the Bahamas, I think you probably want 100' of chain. If you are willing to inspect and replace your chain regularly, you could use 1/4" G43 which is plenty strong and about half the weight of 5/16".

To give you one more data point, our CD30 ketch has a 33lb Rocna with 30' of 3/8" BBB chain and then a 5/8" 3 strand nylon rode. This combination has never dragged despite several severe thunderstorms, a few nor'easters and Irene where we had 40-45knots gusting over 60 knots and the wind veered 120 degrees with a medium mud bottom. I would prefer to have 5/16" chain but I already had the 3/8" so that is why we used that. A 25lb new generation anchor would probably work for us as well but we tend to anchor out regardless of weather and I wanted the extra security of the 33lb version.

If I were in your shoes, I would probably either go the route of a 35 lb new generation anchor or a 25 lb new generation anchor with a very good storm anchor.

[Jim Walsh]

Having had experience with the Spade, Manson Supreme, Rocna and Mantus, there is no question in my mind that these anchors are far superior when it comes to setting and handling wind shifts.

Klem,
What experience have you had with these anchors?

[jen1722terry]

Thanks so much for the detailed thoughts, Klem.

We're now thinking we'll set up our anchors/rodes for our cruising grounds for the next few seasons (Nova Scotia, New England, Lake Ontario and the St. Lawrence) and rethink our needs if and when we head to the Bahamas.

I do like the idea of 1/4" chain, but the 5/16 will last a lot longer and, with Jim Walsh's kind guidance on his windlass installation, we'll be installing mechanical help to allow for the greater rode/anchor weight.

One thing we do like about the newer designs is the price: about half what you pay for a good CQR.

Having sailed the Chesapeake and New Jersey back bays since my boyhood, I'm familiar with the limitations/strengths of Danforth-type anchors. But the light weight and foldability of of a very large Fortress is intriguing in the limited confines of our 31. Much to consider.

Have a great short workweek!

Jenn and Terry

[Steve Laume]

New England and Canadian anchorages are not immune to the sort of chafe issues you might find in coral areas. There are many anchorages where a rode could wrap itself around sharp rocks, capable of cutting through a nylon line. Even in areas where there are no rocks, you could encounter obstructions in the form of discarded metal that could easily cut your anchor line.

One of the factors in putting 90' of chain on board Raven was the snagging of an abandon mooring anchor in Proveniencetown Harbor. I though I had anchored in a firm sand bottom with no obstructions but had a severely fouled anchor rode when I went to retrieve it. I worked the boat around and pulled my butt off until I was finally able to raise a huge dumb bell looking mooring anchor off of the bottom and free my line. This was back when I only had 20' of 3/8" chain and the thing did cause a bit of chafe on the nylon. If there had been more wind and or wave action it could have easily cut me free during the night. After that incident I never slept quite as soundly until I switched to the 90' of chain, Steve.

[Klem]

Having had experience with the Spade, Manson Supreme, Rocna and Mantus, there is no question in my mind that these anchors are far superior when it comes to setting and handling wind shifts.

Klem,
What experience have you had with these anchors?

Hi Jim,

We typically get about 70 nights a year at anchor although it used to be more like 120 when I worked commercially although those were very different anchors. Anchors that we own have been used primarily in the northeast US and Canadian Maritimes. Here is a rough rundown of the usage I have gotten with each:
-I have never owned a Spade but have sailed on a few boats with them although I have probably only had 25 sets with one.
-We picked up a Manson Supreme 35 lb when the Rocna shank issues were going on. We used this anchor for a little while as the primary on our CD30K but switched back to the Rocna due to roller fit issues. We also used this anchor for the first few weeks with our new boat while waiting on a backordered Mantus (it is now the backup on this boat but hasn't been used). We probably have 50 sets on this.
-For 5 years, the primary anchor on our CD30K was a Rocna 15 (33lb). We probably have 300+ sets on this.
-We picked up a Mantus 65 lb for our new CS36T this year and used it about 70 times.
-I took our Rocna and Manson Supreme as well as an old Bruce of mine and a Spade that a friend owned and towed them around in sand with our one ton diesel pickup which was very helpful for seeing how they work.

The differences between these anchors is small. From a setting standpoint, the Mantus definitely has the edge although it is small. It sets very quickly but the major difference is at short scope where it sets quickly and easily. The Spade seems to be harder to set in grass than the others although I have heard that this is not true in the big sizes. With the old generation of anchors, I was never able to find a single design that set easily in all substrates but these anchors set first try 99% (really!) of the time.

For resetting/shuffling, I expect that either the Spade or the Mantus would do best. The reason that I say this is that both anchors load up with soil less. The Rocna definitely loads up the most and I suspect that this is due to the small rollbar and lifted trailing edge.

I have never dragged any of them except with our pickup truck so it is a bit hard to comment on holding power. The Spade seems to be able to dive deeper into the soil which would translate into higher holding power in soils where it can dive. The Spade also has the lowest surface area so it probably has less holding power in bottoms where this diving is not possible. In soils that could load up against the roll bar, I would expect the Mantus to be better than the Manson Supreme which would be better than the Rocna simply based on how much these anchors load up.

If I was going to buy another anchor right now, I would buy another Mantus. To me the biggest advantage is the excellent short scope performance but I also like the roll bar design which loads up with less material. The downside of this anchor is that it appears to be less robust than the others and the exterior dimensions are larger.

Sorry for being longwinded, I hope that this helps. There is an interesting thread over on cruisersforum where a few members took underwater photos of different anchors.