Ethanol Blues...

[Big E]

OK people, I got some disparaging news today...Evidently, BIG OIL Doesn't care about us 2 stroke outboard users. Apparantly, new mellinium ethanol gasoline has a way of DESTROYING smaller outboard engines. My engine is all gummed up & not getting fuel. My mechanic tells me that unless I'm able to use new gas every 3 weeks and start the engine every other day then I can expect nightmarish carb problems. She says it's even worse on 4 stroke engines. Is there anyplace that I can buy gas without ethanol? (Yes I know this is a pipe dream question.) How do others deal with this problem? I can already feel the season fading fast & it's going to be 15 days before my mechanic can even look at my engine. (They got 10 ahead of me with similar issues.)

Furthermore, do Diesel users have similar issues? I'm upgrading to a bigger boat next year.
So frustrating.

[lrak]

IMO your mechanic is almost as full of it as the corn lobbyists that forced us into using the ethanol.

Your mechanic's estimate is probably correct for an open bucket in Miami. Even with the weather we've been having lately, gas lasts a lot more than three weeks in a sealed container in Massachusetts. I just burned up the last of my outboard gas this weekend. The gas was from September. The outboard was made in 1992 and has the original fuel lines. The fuel pump was just rebuilt for the first time in the fall of 2011. It still worked and wasn't gummed up, but the idle was getting erratic.

[Jim Cornwell]

When I started having to use E-10 in a gas/oil mix a few years ago, my Nissan 3.5 outboard didn't like it either It started and idled at screamingly high revs and I went through a bunch of shear pins before giving up. Outboard mechanic nodded knowingly, gestured toward a shop-full of two-stroke engines and muttered, "Ethanol." He prescribed Startron, which seems to have corrected the problem. For reasons I don't fully understand, that old engine is back to its former self, running like a champion. I've heard that Starton counteracts other ill effects of E-10 in both two and four strokes, including automobiles. Have others had experience with this elixir?

[lrak]

I've heard that Starton counteracts other ill effects of E-10 in both two and four strokes, including automobiles.

I haven't used it, because I haven't had any ethanol problems. But per the MSDS Startron is 99%+ Naptha (aka Coleman fuel) and < 0.5% "proprietary organic compounds". You're mixing 1oz of Startron in 2048 oz (16 gallons) of gas, and only 0.5% of the Startron could be useful. So 2048 / 0.005 means one part of "proprietary organic compound" for every 409600 parts of gasoline. It would have to be a real miracle product.

[mashenden]

IMO your mechanic may be a bit exaggerated, but not by much. As I understand things, ethanol is added to low octane gas to give it the needed umph. Unfortunately over time ethanol absorbs moisture (something that is in high quantities around most boats ). With enough temperature cycles, the moisture causes the ethanol to separate from the gas. The result being three layers; ethanol, water and low octane gas, all of which cause problems for engines. Ethanol burns too hot, low octane burns too cool, and water does not burn (despite the hydrogen) as well as corrodes metal parts in the engine if allowed to sit (like over a winter).

Also, ethanol in gas causes many rubber parts to deteriorate, particularly in engines designed before ethanol gas. I own 3 1990's vintage sea-doos (yes - I swing both ways ) where ethanol caused the Coast Guard approved gray gas lines to break down (gross green snot looking stuff), then the carbs gummed up and ultimately resulting in the engines locking up (from running too lean, or rich - I forget which). That means the previous owners lost $1000+ each.

Most marinas sell non-ethanol gas. There is also a web site (http://pure-gas.org/) that defines gas stations that carry non-ethanol gas. All of the ones that I use were listed, so it seems fairly reliable.

Bottom line - I believe that ethanol gas works OK in cars that are designed for it and operated regularly enough to use the gas before it has a chance to separate. Otherwise is is the worst idea EVER. My suggested guidelines; drink grain derived alcohol and burn liquid dinosaurs in engines if the wind dies (or when you want to sea-doo).

On a related side note - I have converted to using rechargeable battery weed eaters for the same reason. Why? Because rebuilding the carbs every other year despite using fuel stabilizer turned me sour.

[Jerry Hammernik]

Briggs and Stratton is a large producer of small engines for lawnmowers, snowblowers and the like. They don't like ethanol fuels but realize they have to deal with them. The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel has a front page story today about a new additive B&S is making for dealing with ethanol. You can view it online at JSonline.com. I have no experience with this particular project since it is new on the marketplace. The article says it is sold at Home Depot and Walmart as well as small engine shops.

Might be worth looking into. In the article they are quoted as saying to the ethanol producers, "If you guys never made another gallon of ethanol, it wouldn't be too soon for us."

If it was me I'd replace the fuel lines, dump the gas you have and give the carb a lot of spray carb cleaner. Those carbs aren't rocket science if you are careful with the parts (take pictures) You probably can do it without full disassembly of the carb. My son has a steady sideline fixing lawnmowers and especially snowblowers. 90% of the time it is just gummed up fuel and the fix is as above. I wouldn't wait in the best part of summer for a backed up mechanic. What's the worst harm you can do? Your engine won't run and you'll have to take it in. You're there already. If you really don't want to try on your own, I wouldn't be afraid to ask a small engine guy (they may not be as backlogged) to take a shot at it.

Good luck,

[moctrams]

I buy no-ethanol gas in Winchester, Va. for all of my 2-cycle engines and lawn tractor. I also use the same fuel for 50-50 mix for my 2-cycle Johnson outboard. I have a 2-cycle weed whacker that is over 25 year old. The secret to 2-cycle survival is to empty all of the fuel out of the tank and run the engine dry.

[sharkbait]

E10 is the problem. It is the very low fuel flow rate in small engines that result in no self cleaning of the fuel jets. Larger engines with higher flow rates seldom have the problem. This is my solution to the problem.



Put a little xylene in this baby pressurize it to a couple of psi and pressure wash the inside of your carburetor. No need to disassemble anything just remove the fuel line from the tank and hook this unit up as the supply side. Works fine on edgers, weed eaters and even my daughters 150cc scooter.

I have a quick connect fitting on the end which works with a series of adapters for different size fuel lines. A couple of ounces of xylene mixed with a pint of fuel should clear up any small carburetor.

Xylene is a major component of most commercially available injector cleaner solutions.

[Sea Hunt Video]

I had this problem with a 2006 Suzuki 6 hp/4stroke when I was "caretaker" of S/V Tadpole (1977 Ty Weekender). I tried everything; nothing worked.

Finally, I was talking to someone at the sailing club who said "just get non-ethanol gas from a marina". I went to a local marina and was told the gas they sell has absolutely zero ethanol.

I replaced all of my fuel lines, rebuilt/cleaned the carburetor, etc. and put in the non-ethanol gas. I never again had a single problem with the engine. I also used an additive but it was mostly for water/moisture emulsions.

The bad news is that the "corn lobby" want to increase ethanol to 20%-25% or higher

I am not sure where you are located but I would recommend that you find a marina that sells non-ethanol gas.

[Big E]

Thanks for all the great advice. I did some additional research today...Newburyport Harbor Marina sells VALVTECT gasoline. VALVTECT advertises that this gas all but eliminates issues with ethanol. Has anybody had any experience with this type of gas?

Other options I've explored include racecar fuel: no ethanol & it has 100 octane. Seems a little risky though & not to mention it's more than 8 bucks per gallon.

An even seemingly riskier proposition is AVGAS or aircraft gasoline...again ethanol free but expensive and contains "low levels" of lead.

What I wouldn't give for a diesel engine right now.

[David Morton]

I also get my gas at a marina with ValvTect and was told the same thing regarding ethanol. Basically I think the gas already has something like Stabil in it as an additive to counter the effect of the ethanol and dehydrate the gas. I don't believe, at least in Maine, that you can get gas that actually is ethanol free.

[tmsc]

I have been told that ethanol is prohibited in aircraft. I don't know if this is true maybe someone on here can verify, but if it is a true a small airport may be a good source for non ethanol. I use to buy avgas years ago for a street rod I had with 11:1 compression. It was not cheap then I hate to see what it is now though. Just throwing it out there for thought.

[tartansailor]

Take it from a Chemical Engineer, Naphtha, Xylene and anhydrous Iso-propyl alcohol are very good at addressing
the gum, carbon deposits and corrosion caused by ethanol.
Why does Naphtha make a a sluggish small 2 stroke run much better?
Because the rings are gummed up, can not expand and that causes smoke and running issues.
The above solvents dissolve that gum and crud.

Buy Iso Heat from WalMart and Naphtha from the Sherwin Williams paint store.
I mix 50/50 and add 1 oz. per gallon to gas as a maintenance, and double that for a bad case.

The mechanism for Xylene is that it softens and loosens deposits, allowing them to pass through the system.

Dick

[Sea Hunt Video]

Dick:

As someone who is still working on getting his GED I will not disagree with a chem engineer.

Also, my experience with ethanol was limited to a 2006 Suzuki 6hp/4 stroke.

That said, the ethanol gas "ingredients" dislodged normal fuel tank crud, particles, etc. These were then carried into the carburetor where they gummed up the fuel intake nozzle, the fuel needle, the injector (or jet). I may not be using the exact service manual terms but basically, the ethanol gas gummed up the carburetor repeatedly. Because it was a small "one jet" as soon as the fuel supply was cut off to the jet the engine died. This may not happen (or not happen as much with large O/Bs because of their multiple fuel supply lines, etc.

All I can say is that as soon as I bought NON-ethanol gas at the local marina (and cleaned and rebuilt the carb & replaced all the fuel lines, etc.) I did not have another problem with the O/B.

I am sure your combination of ingredients/chemicals will work. For me, if and when I get an small o/b for a tender I will make sure to put in only non-ethanol gas.

Big E, in your area (Salem, Ma.) I would think there would be a marina that has access to non-ethanol gas.

[sharkbait]

Dick

Thanks for the chemical explanation. I knew Xylene worked but not why. I will modify my concoction and add some Naphtha to the mix. Would a little MEK help too?