CD33 - cutters or cutter conversion?

[Southless]

Does anyone know how many CD33's were actually built with the cutter rig option as opposed to the sloop? I'm looking to buy a CD33 but want one with the cutter rig option, but maybe they don't exist?

Alternatively, has anyone converted a CD33 sloop to a cutter? Is the foretriangle large enough to accommodate anything larger than a storm staysail? Where would a staysail best sheet to? I'd be interested to hear from anyone familiar with the costs/pitfalls of such a conversion. Is it really practical?

Thanks for your advice/help.

[Joe CD MS 300]

Try searching prior posts. I got 69 hits when I searched for 33 and cutter. It looks like a few were rigged as cutters.

[Warren S]

Not that it's all that relevant, but this month's Good Old Boat has an interesting article by Bob Perry regarding changes to a boat's configuration to improve weather helm, including sloop-to-cutter conversion. Since I have a stemhead/masthead sloop (CD 270), one interesting fix was to add a bowsprit and forward stay for the jib. Viola; cutter conversion. -No need to add a new attach point/reinforced bulkhead/backing plate, new jib stay goes to existing stemhead.

[WaywardWind]

Take care not to try to "convert" a sloop to a twin sail sloop (sometimes thought to be a cutter, but not, because a true cutter has the mast moved farther aft) by mounting a padeye (and Hyfield Lever) to someplace on the foredeck.

Here's why.

The foredeck was not designed, nor was it built, to be strong enough to take the SERIOUS upward force on the deck UNLESS rod is glassed in on the underside of the deck going to the strong v-part of the hull beneath. Without the rod, the deck will bow up, pulling the hull in from the sides.

Essentially, without the rod, you can not pull the stay on the staysail tight for anything approaching good sail shape. The staysail has kinda the shape of a bedsheet.

Also, if you chose to run the (new) staysail stay fractional instead of all the way to the top, you must then also install running backstays to keep from bending (breaking) the mast at the stay/mast juncture. Those running backstays can interfere with genoa sheet adjustment when trying to close haul a genoa.

Nearly all the advantage of staysail sloop or cutter is that the staysail is smaller and better formed in heavy winds than a partially rolled up genoa.

There are limited number of times in sailing when a cutter with two foresails up will outperform the same boat hull in a sloop environment.

[JWSutcliffe]

Since the mast location looks to be about the same on the 33 sloop as the 330 cutter, you can get a good idea of the general arrangement by looking at the 330 brochure on this website. The staysail boom and inner stay are attached to the bowsprit, not the deck. There is one additional bay stay on each side of the mast - no running backstays. This configuration is shared by the 31 as well, and the stay layout is well illustrated in the 31 sail plan also on this website.

Having a fair amount of experience sailing a CD30, 31 and 33, I feel comfortable saying that the advantage of the cutter rig (I know, Cape Dories are not true cutters) is not improved performance across the entire range of sailing conditions, but more flexibility in sail selection and ease of tacking when sailing shorthanded - i.e. typical cruising conditions. In lighter air we can fly the relatively small staysail with a 110% yankee, but as the wind increases furl the yankee and use the staysail to avoid a misshapen partially reefed jib - all without bending on different sails. If I was looking to race, I would choose a sloop rig with a good selection of headsails available. But then, if I were racing, I would have a large crew, and wouldn't choose a Cape Dory in the first place. For comfortable cruising in a wide range of conditions, with just my wife and I, the cutter rig is ideal.

[Steve Laume]

One other big advantage to the club footed staysail is that you can short tack without resheeting. I often sail with the main and staysail on and off the mooring or in tight quarters. This enables me to tack at will and once more room is available the yankee is unrolled.

I have a large jib for Raven but only ever had it on for a couple of weeks. I thought it would make a great summer sail. By the time I got around to trying it, I had some higher winds and was cursing the lack of flexibility the yankee and staysail offered. One thing I noticed imediately was that my viability was seriously compromised with the gennoa.

If the winds are very light and I need the power of a larger head sail I have a free flying reacher that more than makes up for the lack of a gennoa. I suppose all I lose with this combination is pointing ability.

I am pretty certain that Leo McDonald installed a staysail to his CD-33. There should be something in the archives or you may want to question him directly. It seems you might even be able to buy his boat with the staysail installed, Steve.

[Southless]

It's interesting what you say about Leo Macdonald's boat having a staysail. I've sent him a message following up on his ad. but received no reply yet, but I'll try again. All the comments I've received so far indicate that a staysail is a useful addition to a cruising boat and so I'm still convinced that's what I should go for even though there may be some minuses as well as plusses to the arrangement. Meantime thank you all very much for your most helpful observations.

[Southless]

Does anyone have a contact phone number or cell number or email address for prior commodore Leo MacDonald. I've tried responding to his message offering his boat for sale, but received no response. I'm likely to be journeying up to his area (Groton, CT) tomorrow from Staten Island and so I'm trying to make contact ASAP.

Thanks

[Oswego John]

Scroll to top of main page.

Hit "Search"

Type in "Lonesome Dove"

Click "Search"

Scroll down to 7th entry.

Click on "NE Fleet Captain's Reception".

Good luck,
O J

[valenteach]

I'm interested in this question as well. I had no luck finding the final solution posted from Leo, although I found many threads discussing the topic. If someone ordered a 33 from the factory back then as a "cutter", did the factory just add a bowsprit and the appropriate standing/running rigging, or did they custom reinforce the hull as WayWardwind describes above? If you do contact Leo or find more details, maybe you can post that info on this thread.


Thanks!

-Mike

[Southless]

I was able to contact Leo and found that his boat is one I had already seen in Maine, but I didn't know who the owner was. His boat has a Staysail stay (or I think he would call it a storm jib stay) leading down to the foredeck. This is then backed up with a stay down through the chain locker to the stem or forefoot and strongly backed up there with an exterior padeye.

Having related that, I still have no idea what arrangement was adopted on boats delivered from Cape Dory as a cutter.

[MFC]

A 33 sold on ebay about a year ago (give or take) which had a inner stay on a pelican hook. Not a cutter (and probably not factory). There was a bunch of discussion of the boat (and the ebay sale) on this list at the time and I believe the guy who bought it subsequently posted to the list. It shouldn't be too difficult to find that discussion in the archives.

Matt

[Southless]

Thanks very much. Looking.....

[Larry DeMers]

The cutter rig is not attached *to the deck*. It is attached to a massive teak bowsprit that is throughbolted into the bow of the boat. There are NO rods or other supports installed nor needed.
A conversion would require the same effort.

Take care not to try to "convert" a sloop to a twin sail sloop (sometimes thought to be a cutter, but not, because a true cutter has the mast moved farther aft) by mounting a padeye (and Hyfield Lever) to someplace on the foredeck.

Here's why.

The foredeck was not designed, nor was it built, to be strong enough to take the SERIOUS upward force on the deck UNLESS rod is glassed in on the underside of the deck going to the strong v-part of the hull beneath. Without the rod, the deck will bow up, pulling the hull in from the sides.

Essentially, without the rod, you can not pull the stay on the staysail tight for anything approaching good sail shape. The staysail has kinda the shape of a bedsheet.

Also, if you chose to run the (new) staysail stay fractional instead of all the way to the top, you must then also install running backstays to keep from bending (breaking) the mast at the stay/mast juncture. Those running backstays can interfere with genoa sheet adjustment when trying to close haul a genoa.

Nearly all the advantage of staysail sloop or cutter is that the staysail is smaller and better formed in heavy winds than a partially rolled up genoa.

There are limited number of times in sailing when a cutter with two foresails up will outperform the same boat hull in a sloop environment.

[WaywardWind]

~~~ The cutter rig is not attached *to the deck*. It is attached to a massive teak bowsprit that is throughbolted into the bow of the boat. There are NO rods or other supports installed nor needed.
A conversion would require the same effort. ~~~

My comment was -- and maybe I didn't make myself completely clear -- do NOT run the (converted) staysail stay to the deck WITHOUT ALSO RUNNING A SOLID ATTACHMENT DECK TO THE V-POINT OF THE HULL, because the deck is not hardly strong enough to hold a tight stay.

Whether or not one wants two foresails or not, or whether or not a converted sloop is a twin-foresail sloop rather than a true cutter was not part of my response. There are reasons a true cutter has the mast moved aft compared to the same hull in a sloop rig, but the reasons are not important in this discussion.

I know people who tried to "cutterize" their sloops by running the staysail stay to the deck without continuing on to the hull. It made for a bedsheet shaped staysail. In one case, the running backstays also made it impossible to tightly sheet the genoa under close hauled conditions. The boat simply wouldn't point as high under genoa/mainsail as it did before the "conversion" with the same sails up.

BTW, in storm conditions, a staysail run to the foredeck reduces broaching and the boat turning downwind compared to the same staysail set forward of the forestay. One of the advantages of a genuine cutter compared to a twin-foresail sloop, but again not really part of this discussion.