Main sheet, making holes in headliner, lines to cockpit

[Dick Kobayashi]

Three questions:

1. A few years ago I bought a handsome new mainsheet from Cajun ropes. Problem it kinks up a lot so I went back to my well worn no kink no brand main sheet which is colorless but well worn and easy on the hands too. And it doesn't kink. Any advice?

2. I am planning to add some deck hardware which will requires drilling some hole through the cabin top and then making a large enough hole in the headliner to get a backing piece/big washer in place. What is the best way to drill the access hole from inside the cabin through the headliner. I don't want to mess it up.

3. Lines to the cockpit or not. Only the main halyard comes back now. What is the real advantage bringing others back. I like to avoid deck clutter.

Any advice most welcome.

[bottomscraper]

You might want to check out Regatta Braid from New England
Ropes for your main sheet. It's a 12 strand single braid that
is advertised as kink resistant and is recommended by them for
mainsheet applications. I haven't actually used it but it sure
looked good at the boat show.

Check out Mainesail's web page on deck penetrations:
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/sealing_the_deck

[Neil Gordon]

Lines to the cockpit or not. Only the main halyard comes back now. What is the real advantage bringing others back. I like to avoid deck clutter.

The big advantage of having all the lines come back is that if something jams in a blow, leaving the cockpit for the first time in years will make your trip to the mast all that more exciting.

[WaywardWind]

**EVERYONE** goes to the mast sooner or later. Everyone. ALWAYS sooner than they wish.

Do it twice a season as compared to every time one sails means the chances of screwing it up go up 200 times, due to lack of experience..

Halyards lead back to the cockpit require more than twice the effort to pull up. 12 knot winds can, in a short hurry, be intimidating. 18 knots can be a showstopper. 25 knots a terror.

Carl Alberg felt that 18 knots was a nice Sunday afternoon.

[Neil Gordon]

Halyards lead back to the cockpit require more than twice the effort to pull up.

Does that suggest the need to double up the maximum working load (and cost per foot) of the lines?

[bottomscraper]

Halyards lead back to the cockpit require more than twice the effort to pull up.

Please provide your calculations for this and show your work.

[WaywardWind]

Halyards lead back to the cockpit require more than twice the effort to pull up.

Please provide your calculations for this and show your work.

Sorry for the obvious error.

Halyards lead to the cockpit through double or triple friction blocks require one/half to one/third the turning block effort, plus friction, of lines without turning blocks.

Two double blocks reduce effort per minute by 200%, plus friction. Four by 400%, plus friction. Twenty blocks = 20,000% reduction in effort, plus friction.

One hundred turning blocks = enough reduction in effort so that that the excess can be sold to your local electric untility company for a HIGH profit ....... less friction.

[Oswego John]

Whether it is true or not, and I haven't the foggiest idea if it is so, I went through life with this assumption.

Add to the load on the haul line 10% for a 180° turning block and 6% or so for each 90° turn. This supposedly includes friction.

Whatever,

O J

N.B. (100% debatable)

[bottomscraper]

Halyards lead back to the cockpit require more than twice the effort to pull up.

Please provide your calculations for this and show your work.

Sorry for the obvious error.

Halyards lead to the cockpit through double or triple friction blocks require one/half to one/third the turning block effort, plus friction, of lines without turning blocks.

Two double blocks reduce effort per minute by 200%, plus friction. Four by 400%, plus friction. Twenty blocks = 20,000% reduction in effort, plus friction.

One hundred turning blocks = enough reduction in effort so that that the excess can be sold to your local electric untility company for a HIGH profit ....... less friction.

You said "twice the effort to pull up" but then choose to ignore
the majority of the effort (the actual weight of the sail and friction
of the slugs or bolt rope). As I expected your statement of
"twice the effort to pull up" is some number you pulled out of
thin air and is:

#NotIntendedToBeAFactualStatement

I will agree that it adds some friction and some increased effort
but in a typical 1 or 2 block it is nothing near twice the effort. How
do I know? Our main halyard does lead back to the cockpit. I
have used it both ways. Is there some extra friction? Yes. Twice
the effort? Not even close. Brion Toss in "The Complete Riggers
Apprentice" estimates 2-10% extra force per sheave.

[SPIBob]

I have a mid-boom main sheet set up. There's a double block on the cabin top traveler and two double blocks fore and aft on the boom. Add a deck mounted turning block bringing the line back to the cockpit and that's a lot of sharp turns for the main sheet to make.

I was using a generic double braid line that wasn't a big problem for kinking but it seemed to require too much effort to haul in. I figured I have at least an 8:1 purchase and that this should make it relatively easy to haul in.

I replaced the sheet with New England Rope's Regatta Braid which is a twelve-strand single baid. What a difference. (I was tempted to use an explanation point there!) I will never use anything else for the main sheet. I imagine that the other major cordage people like Samson and Yale have equivalent single braid lines that will work just as well.

[WaywardWind]

Let me ask this question:

If one doesn't know how to get to the mast to raise and lower sails in good weather -- what with halyards led to the cockpit being "a safety factor" and all -- how is one ever going to get to the mast when the weather is snotty and things have jammed?

I've seen sails shredded because the "sailor" was unwilling to go to the mast.

[Bob Ohler]

I have done this project before when I ran halyards aft on our CD25D. I made the aluminum back-up plates using a hole saw. I cut the access hole in the headliner using the same hole saw while holding the vacuum near the cutter. I made cover "plugs" for the headliner on the wood lathe. This made for a nice job. Whatever you do... BED the hardware properly using Maine Sails excellent instructions and butyl bedding tape!

Good Luck!

Bob O.

[Russell]

Removed, too much rum last night, sorry for going a bit overboard.

[drysuit2]

I have done this project before when I ran halyards aft on our CD25D. I made the aluminum back-up plates using a hole saw. I cut the access hole in the headliner using the same hole saw while holding the vacuum near the cutter. I made cover "plugs" for the headliner on the wood lathe. This made for a nice job. Whatever you do... BED the hardware properly using Maine Sails excellent instructions and butyl bedding tape!

Good Luck!

Bob O.

Dick,
I agree with Bob here. But I don"t have any experience with a CD25D Head liner. Instead of forcener bit, I used a traditional hole saw with an extra long pilot bit. I started my hole from the inside [ my headliner was a thin fiberglass almost like Flormica with a thin layer of ;it looked like fiberglass insulation] in between.

Then I could use the same pilot hole when I drilled from the outside. Bob's idea of a wood plug is a good one. But I faired the edges and treated the hole, well like a hole; and filled it with some layers of chop strand mat, and sandwiched it between woven roving mat.

Now I had a good firm surface to drill and tap for my through bolts. I used 45oo as my bedding compound [which may be a little overkill], a nice piece of G10 as my over-sized backing plate , aluminum will do, and some nice over-sized washers before my bolts.

I ended up using a nice oval, 1/4" piece of mahogany [it's all I had, to cover the plate and screws from inside. I used velcro tape to attach it to the headliner so I could check for leaks.
hope this helps.

[WaywardWind]

Russ, please take a couple of "chill pills".

I have "some" offshore time, but I will not get in a urinating up a rope contest over it. Let me say I've sailed purposely in winds 5 to 45 knots, and accidently in winds 0 to 4 knots and 45+ knots. I have been on the foredeck, offshore, at night, changing sails, and on one occasion lain on the deck to use my (much stronger) leg muscles to crank a halyard winch around a quarter turn at a time.

Some people sail, some people motor downwind.

Now ...

... for every problem, there is an elegant, complicated solution which is absolutely wrong. In the business world, there is an oft-forgotten dictate that goes "First, you define the problem, THEN you find the solution."

The reason -- the actual reason -- for moving the halyard winches to the edge of the cockpit is because the sailor's legs are getting weak from lack of use, the balance going with it.

One solution, and a solution bringing more and dangerous problems in snotty weather, is to add friction and complexity with cockpit winches.

The other solution is to head to the gym -- like the doctor says -- and lift some heavy weights several times a week.

I once knew an 86 year old man (who had played NFL football for 15 years as a young man) who traded in his powerboat and bought a sailboat, saying he wanted to find out about "all that fun you young guys are having." I saw that man last when he was age 90 and his cancer had returned. He complained about his doctor who told him the medication "wouldn't affect" him. But it did, he said, for he could no longer lift weights.

That man was married to the same woman sixty some years, and she sure did like the way he looked.