Rigging Question

[GLutzow]

I am going to attempt, after all these years, to replace my standing rigging myself. The question? The relative strength between swag fittings and the staylock system. Which is stronger and less likely to failure. We are hoping to do a walkabout through the Caribbean on my CD25 and I am slowly prepping the ship.

[Matt Cawthorne]

Generally swaged fittings are cheaper and, for a while have plenty of strength. Properly roller swaged fittings retain their strength for much longer. An older style of swaging left tensile stress fields on the inside of the barrel that run the length of the barrel. The failure mode on this type of swaging arises from the tensile stress field and stress corrosion. The swage fails by cracking along the swage from the insiide out. By the time you see it the swage may have lost it's ability to hold the wire.

There are a number of mechanical lock fittings (i.e. Stalok, Norseman and others). After a number of years you can just open them up, look at them, add sealant and screw them back together. They are considered by many to be more reliable. With these fittings you have some latitude to fix the rig yourself, if needed. This could be very useful. Just buy some extra cones.

Some people use a mix. In this configuration swaged is used up top where less salt water is present and swageless is used down at the deck.

[The Patriot]

I am going to attempt, after all these years, to replace my standing rigging myself ... relative strength between swag fittings and the staylock system. Which is stronger and less likely to failure ...

If this is a DIY job, you really have no choice. There are hand swage tools but their reputation among riggers is fairly poor, especially considering that you have not done this in the past. OTOH mechanical fittings are fairly straightforward and if you don't like the first try, you can disassemble and do them again. Among the mechanicals it's pretty much a toss-up, with StaLok being perhaps the most well-known. If it were my boat I'd go with StaLoks up and down on all wires, including the bobstay.

BTW, how are you making out with the new Sarasota mooring regime?

[Cathy Monaghan]

If he doesn't chime in, and I hope he does, fellow CDSOA member Rich Abato has a really nice "how-to" online regarding installing Sta-Loc fittings. See it at: http://sailmahalo.com/picture_collectio ... ngStaloks/


Cathy
CD32 Realization, #3
Rahway, NJ
Raritan Bay

[eb1smith]

I had to redo the rigging after Katrina to out the mast on the CD-31 I have. I did not know the length, so I have swage fittings on the top and Sta-lok fittings on the lower part. The Sta-lok fittings are not too hard to put together, but get extra cones. I worked with Rigging-Only but in FLA you could use Sailing Services.

Cheers,

Eric
Sitting in the Dinner Key Mooring Field waiting for a window.

[John Stone]

Gregg,
I grew up sailing in Sarasota. What a great place to sail.

There is another alternative to swage fittings, Norseman, and sta-lock . . . SS wire can be hand-spliced (liverpool splice).

Though 7X7 is the usual wire for splicing because it is not very difficult. It does stretch a bit more than 1X19 (though barely measurable) but that is not a big deal with the CD's low to mid-aspect ratio rig. It is not as strong as 1X19 so you have to usually bump up to the next diameter if you go with 7X7.

Despite what some claim (including some riggers), 1X19 SS can most definitely be hand-spliced--though it is difficult. I have been practicing on 7X7 and plan to work my way to 1X19 for my CD-36. I have an inexpensive aluminum wire slicing vice so it does not take much to get started. I learned by using Brion Toss's great book "The Rigger's Apprentice," which you should consider acquiring even if you don't want to learn to splice wire. Brion also has a new DVD out on splicing wire.

I met with Brion this fall and he assured me if one is determined one can splice 1x19. The tests they have run by breaking spliced wire in a hydraulic machine prove that properly spliced wire will exceed the rated breaking strength of the wire. Brion has a website and forum at http://www.briontoss.com/ that is worth a visit. There is a lot of info both in his book and at his website on all types of wire terminal fittings.

The advantages of handspliced wire are many not the least of which is that it will far outlive swaged wire, epecially in the tropics--plus you can repari it yourself, anywhere. Something to note is that both norseman and sta-lock have failed. I am sure the reasons are varied but you might want to look into it so you go into it with your eyes wide open.

Granted most do not want to take-on learning to splice but it is viable alternative.

[GLutzow]

I own the Riggers Apprentice and, in fact, do all of my own splicing from mooring harness to halyards so I am familiar. A wire splice would be great, but I have this image of trying to repair a failed stay, in bad weather, with a splice and the picture is not pretty.

Sarasota is a great place to raise kids, except during season, but the sailing can be iffy. When I lived in Ft Lauderdale I owned a 44' cutter and sailed to the Bahamas on a regular basis. We don't have the winds nor the depth for that kind of boat on this coast, but we have a great race to Havana every year which is fun and so is the annual Sarasota to Key West race.

[John Stone]

Gregg,
Whether or not I spliced if I were on an extended cruise I would carry an extra wire, a bit longer than my longest wire and the same diameter as my heaviest stay. I would have a splice (or pre swagged if you prefer that method) premade in one end. If I needed an emergency wire I would use a Molly Hogan splice on the other end or if speed were critical I could always use a couple three cable clips. I would not think a sta-lock any easier than either of those.

I recall the water being a bit thin in Sarasota but we always had enough. We sailed our Allied 39 out of Sarasota and I raced lasers, 470s, and MORC there for many years. I don't recall the wind being any lighter there in the summer than it is on the Chesapeake during the summer. At least there isn't any ice floating off of City Island in January.

I never raced to Havana--but it sounds like fun. Enjoy your Caribbean cruise and the clear blue water.

Regards,
John

[Matt Cawthorne]

John,
I agree with you that a wire splice is probably the most robust of the rigging ends, but that rigging end still needs to have a pin and some sort of clevis, along with a turnbuckle and another T bolt and the final clevis. By going this route you have added a fork (probably a toggle) that is a potential failure point in place of the Sta-lok fitting. Aloft, you will have eliminated the Sta-lok without adding additional hardware (depending on your tang configuration).
So what if any of the other hardware breaks? There are some items, that if broken, will be fixed easily with a Sta-lok or Norseman system . Supose the threaded rod on the bottom of the sta-lok breaks. Assuming that you don't loose the rig,

Three minutes to go below and get two wrenches a pair of pliers, some cotter pins and a replacement Sta-lok.

One minute to put on your harness and clip in.

One minute to catch the end of the shroud.

Two wrenches and 30 seconds and the bottom of the sta-lok is removed.

Two wrenches and another minute and the new sta-lok bottom is inserted.

Two minutes to remove two cotter pins in the turnbuckle

Two minutes to remove the old threaded rod from the turnbuckle.

Two minutes to engage the shroud and snug down the turnbuckle.

Two minutes to install two cotter pins and rough bend them.

Less than 15 minutes assuming that you don't drop the wrenches overboard. (5 at the dock)


The time would be about the same if the equivalent part (the fork/toggle attached to eye spliced rigging) failed.

If a swaged fitting failed, and you had to use cable dogs, you could make a loop and insert a spare toggle but the time would easily be twice as long and there are more small parts to drop overboard and more things to tighten.

Agreed there is a pull-out failure mode with the Sta-lok fittings and if that happened, repair would be tough on a pitching deck. That load is relatively near the breaking strength of the wire. If you hit that load and did not exceed the breaking strength of the wire the eye splice would probably survive but the rig may get sloppy if the thimbles colapsed. Are you using solid thimbles?

I have only had one rigging failure at sea. It was a rental boat and the swage failed. I heard it happen while at the mast and it took about 5 seconds for me to realize what that flogging piece of wire was. Luckily the helmsman responded to my call for a tack immediatly and before the next gust the load was off the rig. We were only about 3 hours from a harbor. If the same thing happened after dark, the rig might have been lost. Check your swages boys and girls........

Matt

[John Stone]

Matt,
Well you are sure passionate about sta-loks--I like that. This is kind of an academic argument though. The idea is to not ever break a shroud/stay while sailing--why would you find yourself in that condition anyway? Because swage fittings break . . . sometimes without warning. Sta-locks and Norseman are also not failure proof. I have read that both have occasionally failed below rated strength. However, the bigger issue for me, and perhaps others, is these kind of mechanical terminal fittings cause work hardening and reduce the life of the wire and wire is expensive. This is not much of an issue for spliced wire . . . properly spliced wire is long lived.

But this is not an either or discussion. I fully acknowledge that 99% of folks will not want to take the time to learn to splice wire and not everyone can--some folks just don't have the patience or desire or maybe they don't see the point--no issue there. It is not appropriate for all rigs anyway. Swages have served many folks well for many years as have sta-loks. My point was only that the alternatives are not just swage or sta-lock/Norseman. Splicing is an option . . . a very viable option. Done correctly a splice will allow the wire to far outlive the wire connected to any mechanical terminal especially when sailed under off-shore conditions. It is simply a matter of work hardening that will break/weaken the wire where it exists the mechanical fitting. Work hardening is practically non-existent for wire splices--they are soft sided. As mentioned above, work hardening means the life of the wire is shortened.

Wire splices can be inspected far more thoroughly than the other terminal fittings. Plus, it is far cheaper to splice your own and if you need to replace your standing rigging in some distant place you can do it yourself with only the cost of the wire. There is a lot to be said for being able to fix your own boat and all its components. But, of course, most folks are not going to go this route and that's OK cause everyone gets to make their own choice.

Money is an issue for some folks. Sta-loks for a CD 36 probably run about $1200-$1500. My vise cost me $200. I can use it for the rest of my life on any size wire I am likely to ever need to splice.

Stay-loks are not difficult to install and wire splicing takes a fair amount of practice. But what a joy it is to put your hands on the wire, unlay it, pull it apart, open the lay, work the correct wire strands in, roll them home with a marlin-spike, and work the slack out with a mallet. It's like going back in time . . . . but, I digress.

Thimbles don't have to be solid but the jaws need to be welded closed. I think solid, extra wide, thimbles are the way to go if you splice 1x19 vice 7x7.

I am not sure what your point is about breaking a stay and how much time you have to run below and get another sta-lok. There is no single best way to react to that event. As you know, conditions will dictate the best solution. But, the plan should be to never break standing rigging under sail . . . ever.

Oh, by the way, even with wire splicing, it would be a good idea to have a least one sta-lok in your tool kit:).

Regards,
John

[Jim Walsh]

I've been replacing my standing rigging as a winter project. All of my standing rigging is original, circa 1984, except for one lower shroud replaced in 1999. I have all the PO's maintenance records. I did a lot of online research and decided to go with Sta-Lok terminals. When replacing my four lower shrouds I found they did not offer a fork with a clevis pin which matched my original swaged fork pin size and I did not want to replace my shroud tangs so I used Hi-Mod as a replacement for those four upper fittings. The Sta-Lok and the Hi-Mod are both quality fittings. Since I have a cutter I have 3/16, 7/32, and 1/4 inch standing rigging. Eleven stays in all. I've actually enjoyed the process and would encourage anyone to do it themselves.

[Maine Sail]

I've actually used the three major brands of swageless terminals. Norseman's look nice but the finish has not proven to be as durable as Sta-Lok. Sta-Lok are nice but very difficult to get apart and re-use but the 316's finish is more durable.

My boat currently has both Sta-Lok and Noresman for the uppers and intermediates. I have also installed the Hayn Hi-Mods and they are my favorites. If I was doing it again the whole boat would be Hayn Hi-Mods. That being said I order my wire with the uppers swaged and the wire cut a tad long, I then cut to length and install the lower fittings as mechanical. They are all great & very strong but I do feel the Hayn's are the best from a re-usability perspective and ease of installation.

Installed correctly mechanical fittings are nearly bomb proof. I won't use anything but mechanical on the bottom ends of the stays.

They don't do this when they fill with water & freeze..


I think the bottom line, above all else, is what you feel comfortable with as piece of mind is a big player in on-water comfort..

[The Patriot]

... the plan should be to never break standing rigging under sail . . . ever ...

I wish I'd planned better the time my headstay toggle failed halfway between Fort Pierce FL and St. George's Bermuda:

http://home.comcast.net/~kerrydeare/bermuda_94_2.htm

[John Stone]

Greg L,
I sent a response to your PM but can't find it in my Forum sent folder. Did it make it to you? If not I can push it to your email address.

Regards,
John