4" water over floorboards, OH, NO!!!

[D. Stump, Hanalei]

Had quite the experience on Hanalei Saturday morning. Opened the hatch, went down the companionway, and stepped into 4" of sea water over the cabin sole! We had a couple of friends aboard for cocktails Friday evening before going out to dinner, drank a considerable amount of grog! The lady asked, just before we left, "Does the head work?". I said yes, and she partook of the amenities. Well, the skipper did NOT check the valve lineup on the head before we left. The guest had left the head in "flush" with the thru hull open, so Hanalei immediately began to sink! I learned a valuable lesson. It was only because of the right flow rate, and the right elapsed time, that I caught the problem before any damage was caused. The water didn't even touch the engine, and only wetted some loose gear in the two lockers under the setee's.

The question is, is there a way to set up the head plumbing so that this wouldn't happen even if someone left the valves in the wrong position? Or, is my head in need of a valve rebuild? In other words, should the head not fill if the valve is in flush with thru hull open?

Any suggestions would be appreciated. Oh, by the way, after spending Saturday afternoon hosing her out, drying her out, we went out Sunday morning. 15 to 25 knot winds, SW, under main and jib, and she did just fine! Had a great first sail!

Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30

[Ryan Turner]

I don't think a valve rebuild will help. I replaced my entire head with a brand new one from West Marine last summer and it still takes on water slowly if left in the "wet flush" position. I've always understood that you just have to check it every time. It sure seems like there should be a better way. It'll be interesting to hear what others have to say.

Ryan Turner
s/v Zenobia
CD33 hull no. 100

Had quite the experience on Hanalei Saturday morning. Opened the hatch, went down the companionway, and stepped into 4" of sea water over the cabin sole! We had a couple of friends aboard for cocktails Friday evening before going out to dinner, drank a considerable amount of grog! The lady asked, just before we left, "Does the head work?". I said yes, and she partook of the amenities. Well, the skipper did NOT check the valve lineup on the head before we left. The guest had left the head in "flush" with the thru hull open, so Hanalei immediately began to sink! I learned a valuable lesson. It was only because of the right flow rate, and the right elapsed time, that I caught the problem before any damage was caused. The water didn't even touch the engine, and only wetted some loose gear in the two lockers under the setee's.

The question is, is there a way to set up the head plumbing so that this wouldn't happen even if someone left the valves in the wrong position? Or, is my head in need of a valve rebuild? In other words, should the head not fill if the valve is in flush with thru hull open?

Any suggestions would be appreciated. Oh, by the way, after spending Saturday afternoon hosing her out, drying her out, we went out Sunday morning. 15 to 25 knot winds, SW, under main and jib, and she did just fine! Had a great first sail!

Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30

rdtec@aol.com

[Don S.]

The only certain way is to have a "leaving the boat" checklist and then use it.

Don Sargeant
~~COQUINA~~
CD25D #189
Grteenwich Cove

Had quite the experience on Hanalei Saturday morning. Opened the hatch, went down the companionway, and stepped into 4" of sea water over the cabin sole! We had a couple of friends aboard for cocktails Friday evening before going out to dinner, drank a considerable amount of grog! The lady asked, just before we left, "Does the head work?". I said yes, and she partook of the amenities. Well, the skipper did NOT check the valve lineup on the head before we left. The guest had left the head in "flush" with the thru hull open, so Hanalei immediately began to sink! I learned a valuable lesson. It was only because of the right flow rate, and the right elapsed time, that I caught the problem before any damage was caused. The water didn't even touch the engine, and only wetted some loose gear in the two lockers under the setee's.

The question is, is there a way to set up the head plumbing so that this wouldn't happen even if someone left the valves in the wrong position? Or, is my head in need of a valve rebuild? In other words, should the head not fill if the valve is in flush with thru hull open?

Any suggestions would be appreciated. Oh, by the way, after spending Saturday afternoon hosing her out, drying her out, we went out Sunday morning. 15 to 25 knot winds, SW, under main and jib, and she did just fine! Had a great first sail!

Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30

don@cliggott.com

[Russell]

And if so, how exactly was the outside water coming in ?

[Bill Goldsmith]

It's my understanding that a 3/4" vented loop on the intake line after the pump but before the bowl, as well as a 1 1/2" vented loop on the soil side, if properly installed, should eliminate or at least minimize the chance of filling. Obviously, the best defense is the seacock!

And if so, how exactly was the outside water coming in ?

goldy@bestweb.net

[Darin Bartram]

I've never had this problem, despite the fact that I never figured out which was the "flush" position on the head, and most certainly left the lever in either position many times. My head system had two loops, one from each of the through-hulls, that rose up above the water level on their way to the head. I thought this was how water kept out.

If your boat had water entering through a 3/4" or 1.5" hose the entire night, wouldn't you expect to have more than just 4" of water in the cabin?

From now on, I have assured this will never happen to me, and I will never have to deal with the smell of the head system. I removed the entire system last month, and replaced it with a porta-potty. No more smell. No more hunting for a pump-out station, at $5.00 a pop. I just take the base home with me and empty it into the toilet.

Hope you solve your water problem.

Darin Bartram (CD26)

Had quite the experience on Hanalei Saturday morning. Opened the hatch, went down the companionway, and stepped into 4" of sea water over the cabin sole! We had a couple of friends aboard for cocktails Friday evening before going out to dinner, drank a considerable amount of grog! The lady asked, just before we left, "Does the head work?". I said yes, and she partook of the amenities. Well, the skipper did NOT check the valve lineup on the head before we left. The guest had left the head in "flush" with the thru hull open, so Hanalei immediately began to sink! I learned a valuable lesson. It was only because of the right flow rate, and the right elapsed time, that I caught the problem before any damage was caused. The water didn't even touch the engine, and only wetted some loose gear in the two lockers under the setee's.

The question is, is there a way to set up the head plumbing so that this wouldn't happen even if someone left the valves in the wrong position? Or, is my head in need of a valve rebuild? In other words, should the head not fill if the valve is in flush with thru hull open?

Any suggestions would be appreciated. Oh, by the way, after spending Saturday afternoon hosing her out, drying her out, we went out Sunday morning. 15 to 25 knot winds, SW, under main and jib, and she did just fine! Had a great first sail!

Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30

dbartram@hunton.com

[Joe Wysong]

Had quite the experience on Hanalei Saturday morning. Opened the hatch, went down the companionway, and stepped into 4" of sea water over the cabin sole! We had a couple of friends aboard for cocktails Friday evening before going out to dinner, drank a considerable amount of grog! The lady asked, just before we left, "Does the head work?". I said yes, and she partook of the amenities. Well, the skipper did NOT check the valve lineup on the head before we left. The guest had left the head in "flush" with the thru hull open, so Hanalei immediately began to sink! I learned a valuable lesson. It was only because of the right flow rate, and the right elapsed time, that I caught the problem before any damage was caused. The water didn't even touch the engine, and only wetted some loose gear in the two lockers under the setee's.

The question is, is there a way to set up the head plumbing so that this wouldn't happen even if someone left the valves in the wrong position? Or, is my head in need of a valve rebuild? In other words, should the head not fill if the valve is in flush with thru hull open?

Any suggestions would be appreciated. Oh, by the way, after spending Saturday afternoon hosing her out, drying her out, we went out Sunday morning. 15 to 25 knot winds, SW, under main and jib, and she did just fine! Had a great first sail!

Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30

First (and foremost), don't ever leave the boat with an open seacock -- ever. (Unless you have an early CD with below the water cockpit scuppers, those you should leave open).

There are two solutions. One expensive, one not so expensive. The inexpensive way is to install a vented loop in both the intake and output lines. As the output line is larger than the intake, different size loops are required. West Marine sells a 3/4" that will fit your intake line and a 1 1/2" that will fit the output.

The expensive route is to install a head that uses a spring loaded foot pedal rather than a manual valve switch. Unless somebody's foot is on the pedal the "flush" valve is closed. The Groco "K" and the Wilcox heads both have the pedal. The Groco comes it at about $500 and the Wilcox at about $800.

Having been up to my ankles in water on numerous occasions in our Pacfic Seacraft Dana, we installed two vented loops and a Groco "K" when we bought our 330. However I may drown, it won't be from water from the head.

Joe



tgjournal@gestalt.org

[Jay]

Dave:

My brother did that to me on the morning of my wedding....and he has been sailing all his life....a life almost cut short. I found it early as the water was running down the shower drain.


I have a new valve and it still trickles in the bowl if left open.

Glad you had a good windy day to help dry it out.

Jay

[Olli Wendelin]

Dave,

Several times I woke up in the middle of the night with uncertainties about securing this or that on the boat. Then driving down to the boat to check. This got old fast. I now have a checklist which I use before leaving the boat.

Someone mentioned the spring loaded inlet valve. I have one, and I have seen it leak by on a stbd tack.

I don't have vented loops, they smell and clog up.

My long term fix will be to install a larger holding tank and a supply tank. All head usage will go into the tank, with no hull valves operated. Periodically the captain can pump the tank through the hull valve.

By the way, do you have a bilge pump on a float switch? This could probably handle a slow leak like you had for a week or so before the battery ran down. It use to be that people in a marina would notice excessive bilge pumping, but now so many people have AC and pump continuously. You could put an alarmed float above the pump to get everyone's notice.

Olli Wendelin
BLUE MOON
Charleston, SC



wendelin@spawar.navy.mil

[Ryan Turner]

No, there is no anti-siphon loop on the head intake hose. The hose runs straight from the sea cock into the head. The way it's set up, it looks like the original construct. Besides, if you had an anti-siphon loop on the raw water supply pump you couldn't get any water through the loop. The head pump "sucks" water from the raw water supply and pumps it into the head. It seems to me that an anti-siphon loop on the raw water side of the pump would suck air when you tried to pump water into the head.

The water slowly fills up the head and could, I'm sure, sink the boat if left unattended long enough.



rdtec@aol.com

[zeida]

Dave: I used to have a porta-potti on my 1980 CD-25 which I sailed for 18 years. A year and a half ago I sold her and got a 1981 CD-33, Bandolera II in great shape. She came with a seacock in the Groco head. The thing was so hard to open and close I physically had to stand on the handle to close it, and pull up with all my might to get it open. Going to the head was for my lower back a terrifying experience. Plus, I could always see the little drip of water coming into the toilet if the pump handle was not properly closed every time. Every time anybody went to the head, I would follow them to make sure they had closed both pump handle and seacock. then for my birthday, i got "the black button!" Bandolera has a very efficient and large holding tank. We bought a macerator pump, installed it right on top of the holding tank. We put an electric start button which opens the "intake" valve. A 3/4" vented loop is now on the intake hose, which goes high inside the cabinet over the sink. The seacock handle is ALWAYS on the open position. Even when Bandolera heels hard to port, she still does not get one drop of water in the head! Now it functions like a regular bathroom, you just go, push the button and voilá. no more pumping, opening or closing of valve or seacock. The waste goes into the holding tank. Once full, (it takes several outings) we can discharge the all-biodegradable stuff in liquid form. It is a great arrangement. Zeida



zcecil@ibm.net

[John Nuttall]

My 31 is original construct, no anti-siphon valve on the inlet side. I experienced the exact phenomen. fortunately I was on the head at the time and got an early warning as my unmentionables submerged !!!!

Ever since then: 1) Dry flushes, with a little water to washdown, and 2) THE CHECKLIST !!!

John Nuttall
CD31 #28 "Aimless"
Oriental, NC

ps - the dry flushes make for fewer trips to the pump out station too..........



nuttallj@msn.com

[John Nuttall]

Dave I know you have worked your tail off getting Hanalei ship shape!! Sorry to hear about this. I sincerly hope your cabin sole is ok!
I use a trick to remember to open the engine water inlet - I stow my keys on the seacock handle ! Maybe you could stow your padlock and keys on your head seacock. It'll remind you to close it just before locking up the companionway....whad-d-ya think?
Regards,
John Nuttall
CD31 #28 "Aimless"
Oriental, NC
ps- We are waiting for you to digitize those photos of Hanalei and post them!!!Bye



nuttallj@msn.com

[Donna Delahanty]

We have left our flush lever up several times and found water overflowing out of the head. Some dock neighbors raised their head above the water line and solved the problem. A project on our "to do" list.

Had quite the experience on Hanalei Saturday morning. Opened the hatch, went down the companionway, and stepped into 4" of sea water over the cabin sole! We had a couple of friends aboard for cocktails Friday evening before going out to dinner, drank a considerable amount of grog! The lady asked, just before we left, "Does the head work?". I said yes, and she partook of the amenities. Well, the skipper did NOT check the valve lineup on the head before we left. The guest had left the head in "flush" with the thru hull open, so Hanalei immediately began to sink! I learned a valuable lesson. It was only because of the right flow rate, and the right elapsed time, that I caught the problem before any damage was caused. The water didn't even touch the engine, and only wetted some loose gear in the two lockers under the setee's.

The question is, is there a way to set up the head plumbing so that this wouldn't happen even if someone left the valves in the wrong position? Or, is my head in need of a valve rebuild? In other words, should the head not fill if the valve is in flush with thru hull open?

Any suggestions would be appreciated. Oh, by the way, after spending Saturday afternoon hosing her out, drying her out, we went out Sunday morning. 15 to 25 knot winds, SW, under main and jib, and she did just fine! Had a great first sail!

Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30

maxg@fuse.net

[john churchill]

my mbiggest -problem now is that i do not know which position my head is in, visions of slowly sinking keeping me from sleep. my head sits on a 1" piece of starboard. i wonder iof this is to raise it above sea level. until i read this i had notgiven it much thought, now i am giving it a lot. my last boat had a portapotty. i do not know which is more repulsive-emptying it or doing the holding tank. i sure will check my seacocks and flush valve when i go to the boat tomorrow, that is after they raise her, if need be. i keep telling myself that the marina would have called if she had sunk.

p.s. when i had SKUA surveyed last fall, i asked about an intake vented loop and was told it is unnecessary.

john churchill