Dutchman Sail Flaking

[Nigel Noble]

When I bought my boat last year, it came with 2 main sails, one rather ancient and well worn, and a brand new loose footed Dacron UK Sail. Naturally I put up the brand new sail but found it impossible to control when lowering the sail single handed. And it was too large to fit in the sail cover. So I sailed last year with the old sail and had a great first year with my own boat.

This year I'm interested in using the new sail, not sure how much more time the old sail has in it. I understand the Dutchman Flaking System is one way of dealing with this new sail and I wondered if anyone had any experience with this system.

Thanks for any advice in advance.

[Bill Goldsmith]

Loonsong came to me with a Dutchman installed. It's great. Installation requires modification of the sail. Heavy plastic grommets allow thick monofilament to be weaved through the sail, forcing the sail to flake. It's a little tricky to set up but once you get the hang of it it is very easy to use. The sail drapes over the boom in somewhat large flakes.

Another option is a set of lazy jacks. No modification of the sail is necessary but hardware has to be installed on the mast and boom.

[Brett I. Miller]

I installed the Dutchman system on our CD36 a few years ago and I have absolutely no regrets. As I did, you have the benefit of starting with a new sail. The system works best when you can "train" the sail to flake with the benefit of the Dutchman. (Old sails are like old dogs in that respect.)

If you search for "Dutchman" in the archives you will find lots of discussion regarding same, including comparisons with alternative systems (e.g., Doyle Stackpack etc.).

Hope that helps.

Brett

[Boyd]

Hi All:

I bought a Dutchman system with my new main sail last year. Since I am a single hander anything that makes life a little simpler is great. I love it. No more flogging sail hanging over the side to wrestle on top of the boom.

I like this better than lazy jacks. Its simpler and I think there is less potential for chafe or hang ups.

To lower or raise the sail I heave to and let the boom sheet out till the boom weather cocks out of the wind. She comes down easily and flakes nicely almost totally by herself. As stated by others it takes some time to get the new sail "trained". When down, I just take the halyard off and put it around the sail to hold it temporarily till I can sort things out enough to put on sail ties. The sail is so well behaved that if the wind is not too strong tying can be delayed a while.

You will need to modify your sail cover to allow for the control lines and probably get a new topping lift. My sailmaker did it all in one price.

Only problem I had was sometimes the mast slides stick near the top when raising. I may go for the very expensive plastic track insert next year.

Boyd
s/v Tern
CD 30 MkII
Fort Lauderdale, Fla.

[John Martin]

Take your sail cover to a sail loft or canvas store. They should be able to add enough material to your sail cover to make it fit. If you have a home sewing machine, you can do the job yourself. I have made and modified much of the canvas on CARINA. Right now, I have the canvas and pattern laid out on the living room floor, to make a main sail cover for KnoTy Boy.

JM

[mahalocd36]

We used the Dutchman on one of the charter boats we were on and it seemed to work fine.

Another option, which doesn't require modification of the sail, is to get a Mack Pack from Mack sails. This gives you a new sail cover that will fit and lazy jacks that will catch it as it falls. It does require attaching some hardware to the mast and boom. We put one on Mahalo a couple of years ago and love it.

http://www.macksails.com/mackpack.htm

[Rollergirl]

I'd consider some "memory time" first.
If your new loose foot UK was to be able to be fitted with a Dutchman system, which I am skeptical of, it would cost about $650, which, IMHO, is a lot of money for a small benefit. Did you inquire of UK if this could be done? Usually, the loose footed sails have a foot that extends beyond the upper surface of the boom. How would the monofilament attach to the boom? Would you be able to get enough rise from your topping lift to tension the monofilament to enable an easy slide down for the filament grommets? Curiously enough, North sails is asked this question in a post to their website a few years ago, and fails to answer it.
Most of the well behaved sails I see are the result of time spent flaked on the boom. It could take a few months for the sail to develop enough memory to assume this shape when lowered. Your answer might well just be time.
And lazy jacks. I made my own for my Ty for about $40 including all the hardware (no blocks) and two sets of line (cut the first set three times and it was still too short.)
Stack packs work great, I would think hard, though, about the space encrochment on a small boat.
I wound up with lazy jacks and a separate cover on the Ensign (23'.)

Good luck
Bill

[Frank Vernet]

Rollergirl makes good points but I wonder at the $650 estimate which, to me, sounds quite high for what amounts to a modest modification.

Simply, as others have stated, the sails is fitted with grommets 2-3 ft appart and 2 small pockets to hold/lock the vertical control lines (monofilament) in place. The pockets are attached/sewn to the bottom of the sail. The monofilament is not attached to the boom.

Also, the vertical lines are adjusted to have approx. 3" of slack and present little, if any, tension on the topping lift. The slack is necessary to allow the main to take a proper shape when filled.

I think this system is superior to Lazy Jacks as there is less chafing, flapping of the sail and reefing is not impacted.

[Rollergirl]

I had more then 1 estimate. 3, actually.

Factor in: Intellectual property, development costs, sailmaker training, advertising, and the ever amazing "used on, near or for a boat" factor.

Any one else have any information?

Bill

[Frank Vernet]

$650! I am glad Sirius came with it installed. Saves having to make a difficult decision.

Like I told the Admiral (once) - "Having a boat may cost more and require more time than a mistress, but....at least you know where I am!"

[Rollergirl]

Great line, Frank. Perhaps I'll work up the courage to try it at home one day.

If I stop posting here, you'll know.

Bill

[Neil Gordon]

The poor man's solution to keeping the main on board is to haul on the reefing line as you ease the main halyard. It tames a significant percentage of the sail. (An imperfect but zero cost solution.)

[Nigel Noble]

I have yet to confirm this but sailchoice.com/dutchman.html is indeed asking $645 for complete installation of the system on the boat and modifying the sail cover. For just the installation in the sail, the price is $405. The change required to the topping lift is simple and running the lines through the sail and attaching them to the sail and the topping lift even I with little experience think I can handle that. So that drops the price somewhat, though I must thank everyone for their suggestions. And I do appreciate the concern my fellow Cape Dorians show for my sad bank account.

[Nigel Noble]

The price I quoted in the previous post was for boats 20 to 28 feet with a luff up to 30 feet.