Typhoon Main & Helm

[Paul McCary]

Can a slightly oversized mainsail increase weather helm?

After my first Typhoon sailing season, I found that the main was about 10" longer along the luff and 4" longer along the foot compared to the original sail, which came as a spare sail when I bought the boat. When sailing to windward, we noticed major weather helm when the wind went over about 15 kts. It was nearly impossible to make the boat bear off.

One question is whether those with the original size sail experience similar amounts of helm in a breeze. I suppose one answer is to reef. The larger sail has two sets of reefing points. Though I don't have much experience, it seemed odd to need to reef in 15-17 kts of wind. And being a little lazy, we never did reef the main but we did furl the jib part way. This reduced heel and helm.

Bottom line: I'm wondering whether what seems to me to be an excessive amount of helm is likely caused by sail size, rig out of tune or something else.

Any insights or suggestions?

[winthrop fisher]

Hi Paul.
it sounds like the sail is to big for the boat, if its to long in both directions maybe it was for another boat, because the sail should not be that long at the foot. i would ask the seller about this and see what they say....hope this helps...winthrop

Can a slightly oversized mainsail increase weather helm?

After my first Typhoon sailing season, I found that the main was about 10" longer along the luff and 4" longer along the foot compared to the original sail, which came as a spare sail when I bought the boat. When sailing to windward, we noticed major weather helm when the wind went over about 15 kts. It was nearly impossible to make the boat bear off.

One question is whether those with the original size sail experience similar amounts of helm in a breeze. I suppose one answer is to reef. The larger sail has two sets of reefing points. Though I don't have much experience, it seemed odd to need to reef in 15-17 kts of wind. And being a little lazy, we never did reef the main but we did furl the jib part way. This reduced heel and helm.

Bottom line: I'm wondering whether what seems to me to be an excessive amount of helm is likely caused by sail size, rig out of tune or something else.

Any insights or suggestions?

[dasein668]

Can a slightly oversized mainsail increase weather helm?

Absolutely. Is the Ty a fractional rig? If so, than an oversized main could have even more impact than on a more modern rig with a big headsail.

Though I don't have much experience, it seemed odd to need to reef in 15-17 kts of wind.

I find that my Triton likes to be reefed at about 15-18 knots. The Triton is a 7/8 frac and I sail with about a 120 working jib. The boat still sails OK with full sail showing up to about 20-22 knots, but at that point the rail is buried and the weather helm begins to get extreme. I find that if I reef at 15 knots or so the boat is much easier to handle and actually goes to weather faster than with full main, presumably because there is less heeling and therefore less leeway, as well as less drag from reduced helm.

If I'm going out solo (about 70% of the time) I will often reef right at the mooring even if the wind is light because around Casco Bay the seabreeze usaually pipes up to a nice 15-20 by midafternoon. In all but the lightest winds the boat doesn't lose much by reefing.

$.02

[Serge Zimberoff]

From my past observations, the foot can be judged correct if there is 4" to 8" still remaining on the boom with the outhaul pulled taught. Also if the luff is wrong, the boom end will be way lower than where the gooseneck is fixed. You didn't say anything about the leech, but I have found that most new Ty sails have the boom horizontal just a few inches below the slot in the sail track.
If these points do line up this way, the sail is probably ok sizewise. Next sail w/enough wind try flattening it as much as possible with the outhaul and see if this doesn't reduce the weather helm. Or do you have the main sheeted in way too much? What do the telltales say? If the flow lines have horizontal telltales on the jib and those on the main are all out, and flattening doesn't move the curve back, the sail may be stretched out in the center?
No matter what...no way you shouldn't be able to head off!
My 2¢ also...

[Paul McCary]

Thanks for the ideas. I didn't mention it in the first post, but the boom does ride low, maybe six inches below the gooseneck slot. Which is inconvenient. So we practice ducking a lot. The sails are now off the boat, so I'm not sure how much boom was left when the outhaul was pulled taut.

I'll try the sail shape/trim solutions next season, but it sounds like I may need to spring for a new sail, Ty-sized with reefing points. Or reef more.

[winthrop fisher]

Hey Paul, you can take it to a sail maker and have it cut down to the right size, that would be allot cheaper, do that first....winthrop

Thanks for the ideas. I didn't mention it in the first post, but the boom does ride low, maybe six inches below the gooseneck slot. Which is inconvenient. So we practice ducking a lot. The sails are now off the boat, so I'm not sure how much boom was left when the outhaul was pulled taut.

I'll try the sail shape/trim solutions next season, but it sounds like I may need to spring for a new sail, Ty-sized with reefing points. Or reef more.

[Chuck Carmichael]

Paul, I initially had some weather helm on my CD 36, and also on a fractionally rigged J22 that I use as a day sailer. In fact, due to following some rigging instructions of one of the J22 sailmakers I had the same problem as you experienced - I coule not get the boat to bear off in heavier winds. In both instances I was able to eliminate the weather helm by tightening the forestay and loosening the backstay thus moving the center of effort forward.

[Peter Drake]

Hi Paul:

The Sail Warehouse (Rolly Tasker Sails) stocks a standard/OEM-type replacement mainsail for the Typhoon Weekender.

Here are their listed dimensions, for comparison:
Luff 22
Leech 23.2
Foot 8.75
Weight 5 oz.
Type Dacron
Battens standard
Reef points 1
Luff type 7/16" slugs
Foot type 7/16" slugs
New yes
Bag yes
Price $460

I purchased a working jib from these guys this summer, and was very pleased with quality, price, and service. Order online, 2-3 day UPS delivery.

Best,
P-

[Serge Zimberoff]

Paul,
While you are at it, my suggestion is to rig the boom height to where it clears you when it swings across. On a Ty there isn't any reason to have to duck (excluding long torso 6'-4" nephews etc). Then fix the boom location with a permanent stop below and a removeable one in the sail track above.
The luff tension can be achieved quite nicely with a very simple Cunningham. I just have a 1/8" line fixed near the bottom of the mast that has a Cunningham hook...the eye of which is the turning point of the line. A small jam cleat low on the mast completes the whole assembly.
When I had my sail re-cut (as Winthrop rightly suggests) the luff was just long enough to let me get the sail all the way up with a tiny bit of slack. The Cunningham easily tightens the luff that way and the boom is always at the same height.

[rtbates]

I did not see anyone offer this advice, so I will. YES you need to put a reef in the main around 15kts. If she's anything like my 25D, she'll reward your effort.

[Jim Davis]

Randy has hit a home run. When the pressure from the wind restricts your ability to maneuver it is time to reef. Cape Dorys, like almost all of Carl Alberg's designs don't like to be sailed on their side. After about 15 degrees of heel your rudder is acting more like the dive breaks on George, the Elder's WW II dive bomber. Also consider letting the main luff a bit - it won't hurt and you will regain control.

Sailing with the rail buried, two hands on the tiller, feet braced to give you more leverage is fun and exciting, but it is normally at the cost of speed and increased leeway.

Jim Davis
S/V Isa Lei

[Serge Zimberoff]

From the post about 15 knot winds needing a reef, my feeling is that the Ty is a lot stiffer than that.

Definitely reef when your Ty is going to be at more than 20 degrees of heel, but that takes more than 20 knots. 15 to 20 knots should sail just fine with full main and working jib without putting the lee rail under.

Serge

[Neil Gordon]

From the post about 15 knot winds needing a reef, my feeling is that the Ty is a lot stiffer than that.

I'm curious what effect the crew has. Certainly it's more of a factor in keeping smaller boats upright than their bigger brothers.

[Peter Drake]

Hi Neil:

You'd think so. But, I find shifting crew weight around in a blow really doesn't much offset the heel of the Ty. Perhaps it's the narrow beam and/or the inability to actually hike out on the rail, so you don't get much leverage with all the weight inboard near the centerline. I've always found the boat to be pretty resistant to crew position, in heavy air.

P-

[winthrop fisher]

Neil as long as you have been here,

how can you say that.

there are allot of people that are saying that typhoons do not heel that much.

like there big brothers.

with nine hundred pounds of ballast, the boat does not heel that far.

mine gos and stays at around 10% to 15% degrees in 15 to 20 knots of wind and mine weights right 2500 pounds with out me in it.

winthrop

From the post about 15 knot winds needing a reef, my feeling is that the Ty is a lot stiffer than that.

I'm curious what effect the crew has. Certainly it's more of a factor in keeping smaller boats upright than their bigger brothers.