This winter I need to replace pretty much all the exterior teak on CD28 #149. Toe rails, rub rails, cockpit combing, grab rails, hatch cover slides, bowsprit--everything but the transom. The original teak was maintained with oil only, but in recent years was cleaned with a power sprayer and pretty much neglected. Now, it's in dismal shape.
Can I reasonably expect to just drill/chisel out the old plugs, unscrew the old wood, and expect the old pieces to drop into my waiting hands (yeah, right!)? Will a putty knife remove the old seating material, or is a chisel required? What to use on the hull and deck to clean it up prior to reinstalling the new pieces, so that I don't damage the gelcoat? In other words, is this going to be a pleasant task, or something that I'll regret for years to come?
I plan to machine the replacement wood pieces myself, but wonder what to use to seat the new pieces--epoxy, caulk, what? My prior woodworking experience is pretty much limited to interior furniture.
I'd love to hear from someone with experience!
Teak Replacement on CD28
Moderator: Jim Walsh
Teak
Andrew,
Your in for a project! The old teak can't be restored? Removing the hardware is straight forward , you will need to pry the wood off as it is bedded.A sharp putty knife should get the old bedding off,you can heat it a bit with a heat gun.Clean off the residue with acetone.Before reinstalling new teak clean both surfaces again and bed with Boatlife,4200 or whatever you choose.Use the original scarf joint to make a template.The last time I bought teak it was $17./bf.Have fun.
________
Lexus Is Specifications
Your in for a project! The old teak can't be restored? Removing the hardware is straight forward , you will need to pry the wood off as it is bedded.A sharp putty knife should get the old bedding off,you can heat it a bit with a heat gun.Clean off the residue with acetone.Before reinstalling new teak clean both surfaces again and bed with Boatlife,4200 or whatever you choose.Use the original scarf joint to make a template.The last time I bought teak it was $17./bf.Have fun.
________
Lexus Is Specifications
Last edited by Ron M. on Feb 11th, '11, 05:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Ed Norton
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Feb 7th, '05, 06:52
- Location: s/v SLLEEK CD 27 #89 Fair Haven, New Jersey
Teak Replacement
Andrew
I replaced all the teak on my CD 27 two years ago. The old teak came off easily. Some screws I had to chisel the wood away and use vice grips to remove. I filled in all the old holes with west system. There was no way I was going to line up every hole. I used EPY (e-pay) lumber in place of teak. It is a little harder to work with, carbide tipped tools, but less expensive to purchase and more durable and lower maintenance than teak. I bedded all my teak with polysulphide caulk. This material is very hard to work with sticky and difficult to remove if dry. Make sure you mask around the areas you are going to bed. It is moisture cured and stays flexible for a long long time. The one skill you are going to need is determination. It is a low skill high labor project. You will need a friend for bedding the toe rails and run strake.
Good Luck Ed Norton
I replaced all the teak on my CD 27 two years ago. The old teak came off easily. Some screws I had to chisel the wood away and use vice grips to remove. I filled in all the old holes with west system. There was no way I was going to line up every hole. I used EPY (e-pay) lumber in place of teak. It is a little harder to work with, carbide tipped tools, but less expensive to purchase and more durable and lower maintenance than teak. I bedded all my teak with polysulphide caulk. This material is very hard to work with sticky and difficult to remove if dry. Make sure you mask around the areas you are going to bed. It is moisture cured and stays flexible for a long long time. The one skill you are going to need is determination. It is a low skill high labor project. You will need a friend for bedding the toe rails and run strake.
Good Luck Ed Norton
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Guest
Unfortunately the original teak was oiled, not varnished, and as the years went by it went from oiled to neglected. Then, to catch up on the job, the former owner power-washed it, which is a big no-no because it blasts away the softer grain and leaves pits and valleys. Over the years, the wood has worn considerably, to the point that many screw heads stand proud of the wood. Think about that--where there used to be 1/4" countersunk plugs, there's now screwheads. That's a lot of lost wood! On top of that, the yard that did some work on her over the winter let her ride on the pilings, causing significant damage/breakage to the rub rail amidships. When you add it all up, it's not worth the labor to try to bring back the original.
I have been considering an alternative to teak, but just haven't yet identified one. It'd be nice to reduce future maintenance, but I don't think the Hunter-style plastic toe rail would look so good on a CD! On the other hand, if anyone can suggest some other product I'm all ears! I'll look into the Ipe wood that was suggested.
A question about bedding: If I'm right--I don't know that I am--the rub rail/toe rail is not integral to water-tightness of the hull. In fact, the screwholes could actually compromise water-tightness of the hull. So, I understand the use of epoxy to fill old holes and for bedding new screws, but wouldn't caulk be sufficient to keep water out from between the deck/hull and the rails?
I have been considering an alternative to teak, but just haven't yet identified one. It'd be nice to reduce future maintenance, but I don't think the Hunter-style plastic toe rail would look so good on a CD! On the other hand, if anyone can suggest some other product I'm all ears! I'll look into the Ipe wood that was suggested.
A question about bedding: If I'm right--I don't know that I am--the rub rail/toe rail is not integral to water-tightness of the hull. In fact, the screwholes could actually compromise water-tightness of the hull. So, I understand the use of epoxy to fill old holes and for bedding new screws, but wouldn't caulk be sufficient to keep water out from between the deck/hull and the rails?
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Bill Goldsmith
- Posts: 625
- Joined: Feb 7th, '05, 08:47
- Location: CD 32
Andrew,
I think if watertightness of the hull-deck joint was dependent on proper toerail and rubrail bedding you would see alot of leaky hull-deck joints on CDs, especially as they have aged. But the joint is pretty much bullet-proof with a glued and screwed (or bolted) inward flange. I think you are right that trim mounting holes can be responsible for leakage if not bedded properly.
It sounds like a labor of love, and with your furniture-building skills I am sure the end product will be beautiful.
I think if watertightness of the hull-deck joint was dependent on proper toerail and rubrail bedding you would see alot of leaky hull-deck joints on CDs, especially as they have aged. But the joint is pretty much bullet-proof with a glued and screwed (or bolted) inward flange. I think you are right that trim mounting holes can be responsible for leakage if not bedded properly.
It sounds like a labor of love, and with your furniture-building skills I am sure the end product will be beautiful.
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Ray Garcia
- Posts: 258
- Joined: Apr 27th, '05, 22:08
- Location: 1981 CD27 #212 "Spirit" Huntington, NY
- Contact:
EPY
Mr. Norton,
Where did you purchase your EPY? I live here on Long Island NY and also plan on replacing most if not all the teak on our 1981 CD 27. Did you replace the stern cap pieces as well? Did you varnish or oil the EPY? Would you happen to have picture(s) of your completed project? Sorry for all the questions but we just got our CD this past spring and are looking forward to bringing her back to top bristol condition.
Thanks.
Where did you purchase your EPY? I live here on Long Island NY and also plan on replacing most if not all the teak on our 1981 CD 27. Did you replace the stern cap pieces as well? Did you varnish or oil the EPY? Would you happen to have picture(s) of your completed project? Sorry for all the questions but we just got our CD this past spring and are looking forward to bringing her back to top bristol condition.
Thanks.
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Guest
Ray,
I'd love to share notes with you. I'm in the same, well, boat, give or take a foot.
My boat was originally my father's, so I grew up on it. We always oiled, rather than varnished, the teak. When the boat was new and energy in ample supply, the teak held up beautifully, and looked beautiful when freshly oiled. But when time marched on, it really started to wear so here I am. I'm inclined to think that several coats of spar varnish would be the way to go. A little more work if you use the rub rail for rubbing against other hard objects, but some well-placed and well-timed fenders could solve most of that problem, and then you could avoid the careful work of trying to oil the teak without spilling the oil on the deck. But the, I never did varnish the original teak, so I don't really know if my theory holds up!
Other opinions out there?
I'd love to share notes with you. I'm in the same, well, boat, give or take a foot.
My boat was originally my father's, so I grew up on it. We always oiled, rather than varnished, the teak. When the boat was new and energy in ample supply, the teak held up beautifully, and looked beautiful when freshly oiled. But when time marched on, it really started to wear so here I am. I'm inclined to think that several coats of spar varnish would be the way to go. A little more work if you use the rub rail for rubbing against other hard objects, but some well-placed and well-timed fenders could solve most of that problem, and then you could avoid the careful work of trying to oil the teak without spilling the oil on the deck. But the, I never did varnish the original teak, so I don't really know if my theory holds up!
Other opinions out there?
Finishing Ipe.
I manufacture and import prefinished wood floors for a living. As far as alternative woods, there are a lot out there that are suitable for boats. If you do a wood that is uncommon, I suggest you get the latin name and search the web for information on durability, rot resistence, dimensional stability and tendency to check. Also be aware that many of the mills don't have good drying practices. Some dry wood too fast, others, not at all. So make sure you have the wood tested for moisture content and pay attention to what the equilized MC should be for your area, outdoors. Even Teak can shrink enough to check or warp across the span of your coamings if it has not be seasoned properly.
Using alternative woods, appearance is going to be important. I haven't found a suitable replacement for Teak appearance that shares the dimensional stability and rot resistence. Ipe is Chocolate brown to med-brown with a green hue. Goncalo Alves (also known as Tigerwood) can become bright red with black streaking, fade to light brown before silvering. Know what aesthetic you want. Shopping the outdoor decking market may give you ideas for other woods.
On the finishing end, while both Teak and Ipe are classified as "oily" woods , we have a lot more problems with finish adhesion on Ipe than Teak. Not to say it can't be done, you just have to be more careful. Ipe will take oil very easily, but if you plan on varnishing, you should test your varnish for adhesion on a small piece before taking on the whole boat. There are primers for varnishes on oily woods and two part vinyl coatings, etc. I don't know much about specifics and I work in the commercial market anyway. I'm not aware if they are available retail. You might want to call a refinishing company or someone who manufactures furniture or millwork that has a finishing booth and ask what they use for oily woods.
Two adhesion tests:
1. After 72 hours, rub the edge of a coin rigorously back and forth across the surface like you are trying to scratch it. Use a quarter or some other coin with a rounded edge. Don't use a sharp edge like on a nickle. You should be able to crush the fiber under the finish without the finish peeling off.
2. After 72 hours, take a razor blade and cut a cross-hatch pattern in the finish down to the wood. make 5-7 lines intersecting 5-7 lines at a 45 degree angle (diamond pattern) using a straight edge. The lines should be roughly 3mm apart. Take a piece of light duty packing tape and stick it to the pattern. Pull tape off, not aggressively fast, but don't take your time. Decent adhesion is to have no more than 2 of the squares come off. Of course, you are shooting for none.
The times for the test are for UV cured finishes, hence the 72 hours. Solvent based finishes may require more time to cure and each finish and environmental condition is different in how it cures. You may want to go as long as a month before assuming the finish is cured. It is legitimate to wait until you feel the coating is fully cured to your liking before you run the test.
You can scrub the wood down with a solvent before applying the finish. While that may help initial adhesion by removing the surface oils, it doesn't gaurantee that the finish used will hold down the oils over time. So your varnish should be compatible with the oils in the wood.
I don't have the time to keep the varnish up routinely and I hate the "laminate" look of Cetol. I've been weighing the benefits of Oil against the technique of a couple coats of epoxy and varnishing over that. You still have to maintain the varnish, but it doesn't craze down to the wood and won't chip off down to the wood. However, I've been told that epoxy has no U.V. inhibitors and gets cloudy when exposed to U.V. exposure. At which point, stripping the epoxy is a nightmare. Not sure what to believe about that. I would be interested in any comments from those still awake after reading this book I just wrote.
Using alternative woods, appearance is going to be important. I haven't found a suitable replacement for Teak appearance that shares the dimensional stability and rot resistence. Ipe is Chocolate brown to med-brown with a green hue. Goncalo Alves (also known as Tigerwood) can become bright red with black streaking, fade to light brown before silvering. Know what aesthetic you want. Shopping the outdoor decking market may give you ideas for other woods.
On the finishing end, while both Teak and Ipe are classified as "oily" woods , we have a lot more problems with finish adhesion on Ipe than Teak. Not to say it can't be done, you just have to be more careful. Ipe will take oil very easily, but if you plan on varnishing, you should test your varnish for adhesion on a small piece before taking on the whole boat. There are primers for varnishes on oily woods and two part vinyl coatings, etc. I don't know much about specifics and I work in the commercial market anyway. I'm not aware if they are available retail. You might want to call a refinishing company or someone who manufactures furniture or millwork that has a finishing booth and ask what they use for oily woods.
Two adhesion tests:
1. After 72 hours, rub the edge of a coin rigorously back and forth across the surface like you are trying to scratch it. Use a quarter or some other coin with a rounded edge. Don't use a sharp edge like on a nickle. You should be able to crush the fiber under the finish without the finish peeling off.
2. After 72 hours, take a razor blade and cut a cross-hatch pattern in the finish down to the wood. make 5-7 lines intersecting 5-7 lines at a 45 degree angle (diamond pattern) using a straight edge. The lines should be roughly 3mm apart. Take a piece of light duty packing tape and stick it to the pattern. Pull tape off, not aggressively fast, but don't take your time. Decent adhesion is to have no more than 2 of the squares come off. Of course, you are shooting for none.
The times for the test are for UV cured finishes, hence the 72 hours. Solvent based finishes may require more time to cure and each finish and environmental condition is different in how it cures. You may want to go as long as a month before assuming the finish is cured. It is legitimate to wait until you feel the coating is fully cured to your liking before you run the test.
You can scrub the wood down with a solvent before applying the finish. While that may help initial adhesion by removing the surface oils, it doesn't gaurantee that the finish used will hold down the oils over time. So your varnish should be compatible with the oils in the wood.
I don't have the time to keep the varnish up routinely and I hate the "laminate" look of Cetol. I've been weighing the benefits of Oil against the technique of a couple coats of epoxy and varnishing over that. You still have to maintain the varnish, but it doesn't craze down to the wood and won't chip off down to the wood. However, I've been told that epoxy has no U.V. inhibitors and gets cloudy when exposed to U.V. exposure. At which point, stripping the epoxy is a nightmare. Not sure what to believe about that. I would be interested in any comments from those still awake after reading this book I just wrote.
Finishing Ipe.
I manufacture and import prefinished wood floors for a living. As far as alternative woods, there are a lot out there that are suitable for boats. If you do a wood that is uncommon, I suggest you get the latin name and search the web for information on durability, rot resistence, dimensional stability and tendency to check. Also be aware that many of the mills don't have good drying practices. Some dry wood too fast, others, not at all. So make sure you have the wood tested for moisture content and pay attention to what the equilized MC should be for your area, outdoors. Even Teak can shrink enough to check or warp across the span of your coamings if it has not be seasoned properly.
Using alternative woods, appearance is going to be important. I haven't found a suitable replacement for Teak appearance that shares the dimensional stability and rot resistence. Ipe is Chocolate brown to med-brown with a green hue. Goncalo Alves (also known as Tigerwood) can become bright red with black streaking, fade to light brown before silvering. Know what aesthetic you want. Shopping the outdoor decking market may give you ideas for other woods.
On the finishing end, while both Teak and Ipe are classified as "oily" woods , we have a lot more problems with finish adhesion on Ipe than Teak. Not to say it can't be done, you just have to be more careful. Ipe will take oil very easily, but if you plan on varnishing, you should test your varnish for adhesion on a small piece before taking on the whole boat. There are primers for varnishes on oily woods and two part vinyl coatings, etc. I don't know much about specifics and I work in the commercial market anyway. I'm not aware if they are available retail. You might want to call a refinishing company or someone who manufactures furniture or millwork that has a finishing booth and ask what they use for oily woods.
Two adhesion tests:
1. After 72 hours, rub the edge of a coin rigorously back and forth across the surface like you are trying to scratch it. Use a quarter or some other coin with a rounded edge. Don't use a sharp edge like on a nickle. You should be able to crush the fiber under the finish without the finish peeling off.
2. After 72 hours, take a razor blade and cut a cross-hatch pattern in the finish down to the wood. make 5-7 lines intersecting 5-7 lines at a 45 degree angle (diamond pattern) using a straight edge. The lines should be roughly 3mm apart. Take a piece of light duty packing tape and stick it to the pattern. Pull tape off, not aggressively fast, but don't take your time. Decent adhesion is to have no more than 2 of the squares come off. Of course, you are shooting for none.
The times for the test are for UV cured finishes, hence the 72 hours. Solvent based finishes may require more time to cure and each finish and environmental condition is different in how it cures. You may want to go as long as a month before assuming the finish is cured. It is legitimate to wait until you feel the coating is fully cured to your liking before you run the test.
You can scrub the wood down with a solvent before applying the finish. While that may help initial adhesion by removing the surface oils, it doesn't gaurantee that the finish used will hold down the oils over time. So your varnish should be compatible with the oils in the wood.
I don't have the time to keep the varnish up routinely and I hate the "laminate" look of Cetol. I've been weighing the benefits of Oil against the technique of a couple coats of epoxy and varnishing over that. You still have to maintain the varnish, but it doesn't craze down to the wood and won't chip off down to the wood. However, I've been told that epoxy has no U.V. inhibitors and gets cloudy when exposed to U.V. exposure. At which point, stripping the epoxy is a nightmare. Not sure what to believe about that. I would be interested in any comments from those still awake after reading this book I just wrote.
Using alternative woods, appearance is going to be important. I haven't found a suitable replacement for Teak appearance that shares the dimensional stability and rot resistence. Ipe is Chocolate brown to med-brown with a green hue. Goncalo Alves (also known as Tigerwood) can become bright red with black streaking, fade to light brown before silvering. Know what aesthetic you want. Shopping the outdoor decking market may give you ideas for other woods.
On the finishing end, while both Teak and Ipe are classified as "oily" woods , we have a lot more problems with finish adhesion on Ipe than Teak. Not to say it can't be done, you just have to be more careful. Ipe will take oil very easily, but if you plan on varnishing, you should test your varnish for adhesion on a small piece before taking on the whole boat. There are primers for varnishes on oily woods and two part vinyl coatings, etc. I don't know much about specifics and I work in the commercial market anyway. I'm not aware if they are available retail. You might want to call a refinishing company or someone who manufactures furniture or millwork that has a finishing booth and ask what they use for oily woods.
Two adhesion tests:
1. After 72 hours, rub the edge of a coin rigorously back and forth across the surface like you are trying to scratch it. Use a quarter or some other coin with a rounded edge. Don't use a sharp edge like on a nickle. You should be able to crush the fiber under the finish without the finish peeling off.
2. After 72 hours, take a razor blade and cut a cross-hatch pattern in the finish down to the wood. make 5-7 lines intersecting 5-7 lines at a 45 degree angle (diamond pattern) using a straight edge. The lines should be roughly 3mm apart. Take a piece of light duty packing tape and stick it to the pattern. Pull tape off, not aggressively fast, but don't take your time. Decent adhesion is to have no more than 2 of the squares come off. Of course, you are shooting for none.
The times for the test are for UV cured finishes, hence the 72 hours. Solvent based finishes may require more time to cure and each finish and environmental condition is different in how it cures. You may want to go as long as a month before assuming the finish is cured. It is legitimate to wait until you feel the coating is fully cured to your liking before you run the test.
You can scrub the wood down with a solvent before applying the finish. While that may help initial adhesion by removing the surface oils, it doesn't gaurantee that the finish used will hold down the oils over time. So your varnish should be compatible with the oils in the wood.
I don't have the time to keep the varnish up routinely and I hate the "laminate" look of Cetol. I've been weighing the benefits of Oil against the technique of a couple coats of epoxy and varnishing over that. You still have to maintain the varnish, but it doesn't craze down to the wood and won't chip off down to the wood. However, I've been told that epoxy has no U.V. inhibitors and gets cloudy when exposed to U.V. exposure. At which point, stripping the epoxy is a nightmare. Not sure what to believe about that. I would be interested in any comments from those still awake after reading this book I just wrote.
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Oswego John
- Posts: 3535
- Joined: Feb 5th, '05, 20:42
- Location: '66 Typhoon "Grace", Hull # 42, Schooner "Ontario", CD 85D Hull #1
WROTE A BOOK
R. Perlot
I want to tell you that the "Book" that you wrote is one of the most informative books that I have read in a long time.
Keep 'em coming.
O J
I want to tell you that the "Book" that you wrote is one of the most informative books that I have read in a long time.
Keep 'em coming.
O J
"If I rest, I rust"
Voting Member #490
Voting Member #490
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Guest
Extruded rails.
Would I shun you? You ask a wood guy. Sawdust runs in my veins. Of course I would.
But I'd get over it after a couple beers. Besides, it's your boat. I used Honduran Mahogany when replacing my Coamings. Some people have criticize me of that. But I happen to thing Hondo is prettier than Teak.
One more thing I forgot to note. It is the Asian Teaks that are so expensive. Mostly stuff from Burma (Myanmar) and Thailand. Primarily because it has been over logged in these areas. However, there are some teak plantations in the Western hemisphere (Costa Rica?, Venezuela) that provide cheaper teak. It is a different color, a little dirtier looking. It is softer with less oil and wider growth rings. Fresh cut it is very yellow, black with splotches of orange. But after it gets exposed to U.V. it starts to darken to more of the traditional teak brown. Just not the same tightness of growth ring and a little dirtier brown. If you can find some, it is usually half the price of Burmese teak. But still significantly more than Ipe or other S. American woods.
VenTeak in Miami might be able to help.
East Teak Trading Co. in Washington and S. Carolina also might have a clue, but they tend to stick to the high end so might not carry the plantation grown stuff.
But I'd get over it after a couple beers. Besides, it's your boat. I used Honduran Mahogany when replacing my Coamings. Some people have criticize me of that. But I happen to thing Hondo is prettier than Teak.
One more thing I forgot to note. It is the Asian Teaks that are so expensive. Mostly stuff from Burma (Myanmar) and Thailand. Primarily because it has been over logged in these areas. However, there are some teak plantations in the Western hemisphere (Costa Rica?, Venezuela) that provide cheaper teak. It is a different color, a little dirtier looking. It is softer with less oil and wider growth rings. Fresh cut it is very yellow, black with splotches of orange. But after it gets exposed to U.V. it starts to darken to more of the traditional teak brown. Just not the same tightness of growth ring and a little dirtier brown. If you can find some, it is usually half the price of Burmese teak. But still significantly more than Ipe or other S. American woods.
VenTeak in Miami might be able to help.
East Teak Trading Co. in Washington and S. Carolina also might have a clue, but they tend to stick to the high end so might not carry the plantation grown stuff.
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Ray Garcia
- Posts: 258
- Joined: Apr 27th, '05, 22:08
- Location: 1981 CD27 #212 "Spirit" Huntington, NY
- Contact:
The search is on...
Starting my search for teak decking...
http://boatdesign.net/Directory/Materials/Wood/
Anyone else? I'm looking for more sources/pricing. I'm also thinking of teak decking the cockpit sole.
Thanks.
http://boatdesign.net/Directory/Materials/Wood/
Anyone else? I'm looking for more sources/pricing. I'm also thinking of teak decking the cockpit sole.
Thanks.
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ronellis
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Feb 5th, '05, 13:03
- Location: Starry Eyes - CD25 #448 (Dad's Boat) - Port Aransas, TX
- Contact:
I've always been intrigued by the low-maintenance potential of Plasteak for rubrail and toerail. It can be bought in a "teak" color, but I've never seen it firsthand (only pictures) to know if it really looks authentic. I'm also concerned that it would fade over time.astrongin@starpower.net wrote:Pardon the pun, but that's an outstanding primer on finishing.
I'm convinced: oil it is!
On the other hand, that extruded toe rail is looking better and better...
But, would I be shunned if I did that?
Anyone have any experience with Plasteak?
Statue of Liberty play
It only works once
Don't throw it away
It only works once
Don't throw it away