how badly did they damage our hull???

[Brian D.]

Hi,

We're getting a late start this year, and finally got down to the boat today to uncover it and begin working on the teak. and then made a sickening discovery.

the yard used a metal cradle this year instead of the usual setting it on blocks and using jack stands. the cradle only supports the boat at four points, with what are the equivalent of jack pads. it appears they lowered the boat down into this cradle, and then put blocks underneath the keel. it appears they put zero support under the back half of the keel. the end result? the back left pad is denting the fiberglass in very noticeably. the front left pad is also denting the fiberglass in, but not as severely.

I know fiberglass has flex, but what is the likelihood this will simply "pop out?" even if it does pop out, is the hull structurally weakened as a result? and if it doesn't pop out, what would be done to fix it?

it was only discovered late when most had left the yard for the day, but obviously we will be checking this in the morning. naturally they should lift and support it to get it sitting right. but then what? I think I'd want them to get a surveyor in to check it regardless. but this looks to me like they've done significant damage to the hull's integrity.

thanks for any comments.

Brian
CD 33

[Brian2]

Some suggestions:
1. Contact your insurance company and let them deal with the boatyard.
2. Don't have the boatyard get a surveyor: YOU get an independent surveyor, and you pay the surveyor, then have the boatyard reimburse you.

Good luck, I feel for you as I have been in the middle of a boatyard screwup too.

[Kurt]

How deep are the dents? 1/4"? 1/2" or worse? Are there any bulkheads directly behind those parts of the hull in contact with the cradle? Fiberglass laminate is very resilient and flexible but bulkheads are not.
Years ago I purchased a CD26 that had been stored on the hard for several years on a slowly sagging wooden cradle that only partially supported the keel. When the yard lifted the boat off the cradle six permanent dents could be seen in hull...much to my surprise the hull slowly returned to it's original curvature over a period of about 2 years.

[Clay Stalker]

In addition to Brian's excellent recommendation, you should take a series of photographs, and document the entire event carefully with a timeline. This may be essential later.

Clay Stalker

[fenixrises]

Hi Brian,

I recently brought my CD 28 to my house for a major rebuild.

Upon inspection I found five cracked bonds between bulkheads, the liner and the hull. I suspect from the location of these cracks that the hull was improperly supported at one or more times during haulouts.

One of the difficulties in discovering these cracked bonds is the fact that three of them could not be seen, even by my own extensive initial survey. Reason: Because the cracked bonds where in areas not visible until I removed much of the interior plywood.

There was no visible signs of the hull itself delaminating or of "dimples" in the hull. Perhaps the event(s) happened some time ago.

As other have said the hull will "pop" back into shape eventually if the deformation has not been too extreme.

The cracked bonds where not an immediate threat to the vessel's security but two of them were a cause for concern in the long term.
One was in a support bulkhead for the fuel tank and one was for the main bulkhead.

The dark line in the middle of this picture is a crack in the fiberglass cloth laid over the filler used between the interior liner and the hull. This area was inside the galley storage space below the cooktop. This could bee seen easily upon visiual inspection.


This dark line is also a cracked bond. It is the forward support for the fuel tank. This was also under the galley. This could be seen easily upon visiual inspection. Just aft of this there was another slight crack on the cockpit bulkhead at about the same place. This could not be seen at all because the tank support platform covered the area completely.


This is a block bonded into the hull. The bond is for the main bulkhead on the starboard side. Since the interior liner does not sit near enough to the hull for the bond to span the distance this block was added. There is a similar arrangement on the portside. One problem with this type of failure is that it cannot be seen unless the settee top is removed.


Do get a surveyor and pictures ASAP.

All in all it may turn out to be a minor problem.

Happy haul outs to you,
Fred B.

[Brian D.]

Thank you all for your replies. And Fred, those pictures are of course very helpful. I feel a bit better just having "talked" about it!

Kurt, I'm not good at judging the actual depth of the dent. But if it gives an indication, I didn't notice the dents when just casually walking around the boat and climbing up the lader. My Father stopped by the boat late in the day and pointed them out. But as I was subsequently expressing my displeasure for anyone around to hear, a passerby indicated "I've never seen something like that before." soo, if I can somehow translate that over to a measurement, I'd say somewhere between 1/4 and 1/2 inch. the bottom paint had some cracks around the area, which I guess I'd expect.

I'll have to check to see what's behind the dent on the inside to see if there's a bulkead, etc. I noticed it's further aft than the position of the jack pads of years past.

I wasn't out on LI today, but my Father did stop by and took a lot of pictures early this morning. The yard indicated they weren't sure what happened, as they've used that cradle before (many years back). It was pointed out that there was no wood under the bottom 1/3 of the keel and they said the rear end of the keel is hollow and doesn't take support (true??). But they said obviously something was wrong to make the shift. They did indicate they would do what was necessary to make it right.

Thanks for everyone's help on this. I'll pass along developments.

best regards,

Brian
CD33

[Zeida Cecilia-Mendez]

[img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sra ... 5f0000.jpg[/img]
Hi , Brian, this is "Bandolera II" my CD-33. Six years ago I had a similar problem at the yard. After about 10 days on jackstands an indentation became obvious on her port side (the galley side) between the last two portholes, right above the bootstripe. I was terrified and made a huge scene at the yard. The manager came out and casually told me "oh, don't worry, it happens ocassionally"... although still distressed, I took my boat back into the water and to her slip. Sure enough, about a week later, there was no more indentation there! I hope you have a similar experience. Bando's hull did return to her normal shape and has never had that problem again. I haul out every two years and nothing like this has ever happened again. Maybe you will be just as lucky. Regards,

[Brian D.]

Thanks Zeida, that's very comforting! (and that sounds exactly how I reacted in the yard). I'm told the boat was moved out of the cradle, so I'll be swinging by in the morning to check its status.

your boat looks great, btw. I'll have to keep an eye out for it the next time I'm working in Miami.

Regards,

Brian

[mahalocd36]

Hi,

Was taking pictures of Mahalo last night (Check out Rich's new Bootstripe and cove stripe! and thought I'd take one so you could see how Brownell supported our keel.

They've been moving and supporting boats for years, and the guy in particular that moves Mahalo home has been doing it for 25 and has done a lot of Cape Dory's. Always checks for bulkheads, etc when placing jackstands. In other words, I trust him
Note that he doesn't place the rear keel supports all the way back, it's about a foot forward of the rudder.

Just to give you a data point as to where the blocks could be placed. The boatyard she was at when we bought her did the
rear blocks approximately the same place. Although there might not be lead there - it's still a strong point. The weight of the boat should never be on the stands.

http://sailmahalo.com/winter2005/DSC_0409.JPG

BTW the rear stand isn't touching the boat as it was being bottom painted at the time....

Melissa
CD36 Mahalo

[Leo]

Hi Rich, et el,

Whoa, careful with those keel blocks!!

The aft end of my CD33 and 1980 on CD30, 31, 33, 36s (maybe more like the 32s) have a bilge holding tank. Evening Light (1981 hull no. 38) had indications in the holding tank (longtitudal cracks in the GRP) from past keel blocks distorting it up into the boat. I went through extensive cleaning/washing/sanding and glass/resin repair last year. (Some of which may be in postings.)

I now have the yard place the blocks forward of the holding tank (under the lead) and at the very aft end of the keel. Visual inspection this spring looked good.

Fair Winds,
Leo
(Who still cannot log on under my registered info )

[Brian D.]

I'm embarassed to say I didn't know there were considerations that needed to be taken in terms of where the keel blocks are placed. Melissa, by "check for bulkheads" do I assume the jack stands should be placed at bulkheads for internal support? In 20 someodd years, I think we've taken the process of putting the boat to bed for the winter a bit for granted.

I'm happy to report that after moving the boat, the dents appear to have worked their way out. At least I couldn't tell where they had been by eyeballing it.

The yard wants to check (as do I) that things appear in order from the inside. I guess the question is, would it still be smart to have a surveyor in? Or would this be a bit overprotective on my part if this type of thing occurs from time to time?

thanks again,

Brian
CD33

[mahalocd36]

Hi Leo,

I can't find your old post. Tried all different ways of searching.

Fixing that must have been a REAL challenge!
You've got me curious now. The blocks are approximately where
the manual says to put the lifting straps. I (and Brownell) know there's a holding tank there. It's where it was supported when we bought the boat (Dave Perry was the broker).. I'm curious what he says...how they are supposed to be supported under the keel for the winter. We'll certainly do it differently!

Are you sure that wasn't damage from something else - like maybe the PO let water freeze in there?

And how would you even see cracks there ? And fix it? I can't even imagine. We're not worthy!!

Melissa

[Zeida Cecilia-Mendez]

Brian... you can forget about calling in a surveyor and save the $$ for something nice for the boat. Once the dents popped back to their original form, that's how it stays! Bandolera II has never had any recurring problem again. Happy sailing!

[joeb]

I just returned this afternoon from looking at a 1961 38 foot Tripp Javelin which is a close relative of the Hinckley Bermuda 40.
The owner was busy laying up a fiberglass patch approximately
5"x8" and about 3/8 " deep that he had ground out after the boatyard caused a crack to appear in the stern area by incorrectly placing the boat supports. see t www.javelin38.com.
The supports were placed near the braces for the Edson sterring wheel post and when the fiberglass hull flexed from the weight bearing on the stand it had no place to expand.Just thought I would share this with you.

[Leo CD33]

Hi Melissa,

I cannot find the previous entry either

Basic summery (as close as I can recall):

While looking for the cause of water in the hull I inspected the interior holding tank hose, clamps & GRP.

I found a major longtitudal crack fore & aft on the centerline (~50 to 60% of the holding tank length) with minor fingers radiating slightly outward and forward. The cracks gave the appearance of being forced up - wider at the top than deeper into the crack. My local GRP guy concurred with me, in that with the keel block placed under the center of the tank, over the years, the boat weight could force the bottom of the holding tank inward (upward.)

I had the yard re-support the boat placing the aft keel block at the very aft end of the keel close to the rudder shoe (??) (The bottom rudder attachment point to the hull.)

Due to the small size (approx. 3-1/2 in. dia.) and limited maneuverability of tools and droplight I had to widen the holding tank inspection rough opening to accept a bronze, chrome plated 5 in. inspection port.
After cleaning the tank, gouging out the cracks, vacuuming, roughing the surface, (and vacuuming again), I placed several layers (1 - 2 days apart) of GRP (All with tools attached to a broom stick.) I used chopped strand, resin and a brush clamped to a broom stick.

After figuring out the mechanics the hardest part was getting over the God awful smell coming out of a 23 year old holding tank (

When we hauled last fall we again had the yard place the keel blocks fwd & aft of the holding tank. Inspection this spring came out good!! No cracks visible

Fair Winds,
Leo MacDonald
S/V Evening Light CD33 #38
(With all holes below the waterline now filled!)
Pine Isl. Bay, Groton, CT