CD33 - cutters or cutter conversion?

[CD-Sailor]

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[valenteach]

So if I answer my own question with nuggets from the above discussion.........when a 33 was ordered as a "cutter" (aka double headsail sloop or other name) they:
A. Did not move the mast aft as in a true cutter rig
B. Added a large teak bowsprit that was thru-bolted to the foredeck and or bow areas.
C. Moved the forestay forward with an additional reverse stay from the bowsprit to the hull at the bow (thru-bolted)
D. Added an inner forestay whose foot was attached/thru-bolted to the bowsprit, not the foredeck.
E. added a split stay aft to distribute the added tension
F. All of the above.

Conclusion: There was no change in the actual mold or layup of the hulls so technically a 33 cutter and 33 sloop have similar (if not identical) structures in the foredeck/bow area? That would suggest to me that a conversion would not be too complicated if one had the money for the parts.

[CD-Sailor]

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[WaywardWind]

... ~~~~~~~~~~In one case~~~~~~~~~~ (emphasis added, lest a reader might not have read before replying), the running backstays also made it impossible to tightly sheet the genoa under close hauled conditions. The boat simply wouldn't point as high under genoa/mainsail as it did before the "conversion" with the same sails up ...

You haven't provided even a minimum amount of detail... [end Sea-Runt]

Runt, listen to me. I SAID the running backstays interfered with the genoa sheets on one converted sloop, meaning the genoa could not be as tightly sheeted in.

On a sailboat, Runt, when the genoa is not as tightly sheeted in, the boat can not point as high. Got that?

Point of interest, Runt, the traveler on my CD-27 is virtually worthless BECAUSE I can't tighten the genoa sheets in enough to make ANY use of the traveler. On a prior boat, I regularly pulled the traveler higher to point higher, and I regularly -- when going upwind (I added that in casen some sailor dint understands) -- dropped the traveler lower in high winds, then tightened the main sheet to gain, in effect, a "half reef".

My CD-27 can do neither, because the shrouds get in the way of the genoa sheet when tightly pulled in. (While I am most certainly willing to pull my genoa in VERY close to the spreaders, I definitely won't let the sail rub on the spreaders. Too much work to fix the hole in the sail afterwards.)

People regularly think in terms of "more sails" on a boat when they think in terms of "more options" in handling sails. HOWEVER, "more sails" always means "less performance" than the same boat with fewer sails (in ascending performance, - cutter rig ketch, - "sloop rig" ketch, - twin head sail sloop, cutter, sloop, cat boat).

A sloop (properly) converted to a twin head sail sloop has some advantages in sail handling for those for whom ease of sail handling has a higher priority.

Anyone who remembers the days when ketchs, cutter-rigged ketchs and cutters were widely offered to boat buyers, will also remember that sails were much heavier each in those days and the winches weren't hardly as useful. Multi-sail sailboats were heavily advertised as "being easier to handle with limited crew".

That was true .... then. With today's modern sails and winches, not so much true. Still a little bit true, but still not so much. Particularly on boats less than 45 feet.

[CD-Sailor]

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[WaywardWind]

Yes, a cat boat is a more efficient sail rig than a sloop.

And, Yes, sailboat masts and radio antennae greater than about 150 feet in height can to an extent be protected against lightning strikes.

And, Yes, the word "one" means "one".

Each of those is a given in the nautical world. Therefore it might be felt anyone who might be inclined to argue any of those three might also be judged to perhaps have an agenda or agendae not sailorly, not nautical.

Please, lets' stay sailorly, let's stay nautical.

[Steve Laume]

I do think the modern sails are getting heavier as the years go by. I am fairly strong and agile but am still happy to have double head sails on a 30 ft boat. I am sure I will become even more appreciative of them as the years pass by.

All of this banter about ultimate performance seems very much out of place on a Cape Dory board. If I enjoyed sailing on a competitive basis or wanted to point as high or go fast as possible, I would not own a Cape Dory.

I do own a Cape Dory because of the quality of construction, ease of handling, kind motion, and the beauty of her lines and details. Once again it could be argued that there are boats better able to fill these criteria. Finding another vessel that could do all of this in the price range of a Cape Dory would be very hard indeed.

If someone happened to be looking for a high performance boat with ultimate sail control I would steer them away from our beloved boats.

Might I suggest a J Boat up to 45 ft with a single head sail for those that single hand a great deal. I have never looked for a J Boat message board but I a pretty certain there must be one and much of the discussion would be about how to improve performance, Steve.

[drysuit2]

.. the running backstays also made it impossible to tightly sheet the genoa under close hauled conditions. The boat simply wouldn't point as high under genoa/mainsail as it did before the "conversion" with the same sails up ...

I don't understand this statement. The track for a Genoa on a CD is on the rail. So a running backstays: properly slacked, or not: your sheeting, or sail trim is limited by the fact that the Genni block is on the rail. And by your shrouds position. Period.

Runt, listen to me. I SAID the running backstays interfered with the genoa sheets on one converted sloop, meaning the genoa could not be as tightly sheeted in.

Was this converted sloop a Cape Dory?

On a sailboat, Runt, when the genoa is not as tightly sheeted in, the boat can not point as high. Got that?

This statement is not entirely correct. If you over sheet the jib or Genoa on a Cape Dory, the CD's short and full keel will cause the boat to slip sideways and therefore not point as well as the boat whose Genni is not as tightly sheeted.

Point of interest, Runt, the traveler on my CD-27 is virtually worthless BECAUSE I can't tighten the genoa sheets in enough to make ANY use of the traveler.

If you would like some help with this problem, I'm sure someone on this board with a CD 27, or your sailmaker can help you.

On a prior boat, I regularly pulled the traveler higher to point higher, and I regularly -- when going upwind (I added that in casen some sailor dint understands) -- dropped the traveler lower in high winds, then tightened the main sheet to gain, in effect, a "half reef".

You move a jib car For and Aft in order to change the shape of your sail. Most commonly it is to open or close the leach of your headsail. If you are trying to change the angle of attack; we usually do that by sheeting in or out. You can then change the headsail shape by using your halyard tension, or by the position of your jib cars.

My CD-27 can do neither, because the shrouds get in the way of the genoa sheet when tightly pulled in.

This is correct. Remember an over sheeted Genni does not make a CD point any higher, due to the limitations of a short full keel.

..."more sails" always means "less performance" than the same boat with fewer sails (in ascending performance, - cutter rig ketch, - "sloop rig" ketch, - twin head sail sloop, cutter, sloop, cat boat).
...

Have you ever sailed a Catboat?

[WaywardWind]

.. the running backstays also made it impossible to tightly sheet the genoa under close hauled conditions. The boat simply wouldn't point as high under genoa/mainsail as it did before the "conversion" with the same sails up ...

~~~~I don't understand this statement. The track for a Genoa on a CD is on the rail. So a running backstays: properly slacked, or not: your sheeting, or sail trim is limited by the fact that the Genni block is on the rail. And by your shrouds position. Period.[end]~~~~

The boat referenced was not a CD, but it would make no difference. On the boat referenced, the running backstays made it impossible to sheet the genoa as tightly as the boat was designed to do, and thus the boat could not, did not, point as high.

Runt, listen to me. I SAID the running backstays interfered with the genoa sheets on one converted sloop, meaning the genoa could not be as tightly sheeted in.

~~~~Was this converted sloop a Cape Dory?[end]~~~~

ibid Also, please note the use of the word "one" which in the context given is completely interchangeable with the word "a".

On a sailboat, Runt, when the genoa is not as tightly sheeted in, the boat can not point as high. Got that?

~~~~This statement is not entirely correct. If you over sheet the jib or Genoa on a Cape Dory, the CD's short and full keel will cause the boat to slip sideways and therefore not point as well as the boat whose Genni is not as tightly sheeted.[end]~~~~

ibid

Point of interest, Runt, the traveler on my CD-27 is virtually worthless BECAUSE I can't tighten the genoa sheets in enough to make ANY use of the traveler.

~~~~If you would like some help with this problem, I'm sure someone on this board with a CD 27, or your sailmaker can help you.[end]~~~~

Huh?? Someone -- anyone -- or MY sailmaker is going to move my shrouds inboard enough to make my main sail traveler useful?

On a prior boat, I regularly pulled the traveler higher to point higher, and I regularly -- when going upwind (I added that in casen some sailor dint understands) -- dropped the traveler lower in high winds, then tightened the main sheet to gain, in effect, a "half reef".

~~~~You move a jib car For and Aft in order to change the shape of your sail. Most commonly it is to open or close the leach of your headsail. If you are trying to change the angle of attack; we usually do that by sheeting in or out. You can then change the headsail shape by using your halyard tension, or by the position of your jib cars.[end]~~~~

ahhhhhhhhh ... why bother to respond, but I will.

When one can sheet the genoa in more tightly AND pull the traveler higher into the wind, BOTH sails make a tighter angle of attack relative to the keel, WHICH MEANS one can point higher.

Also, when going up wind in building winds on my prior boat, dropping the traveler to the low side and then hauling tight on the main sheet both depowered the sail AND pulled it tight so it didn't flog yet offered some upwind power, in effect "a half reef". The same could have been down on my prior boat with a boom vang, but the boat didn't have a boom vang and I never felt inclined to install one.

My CD-27 came with a boom vang, but I've never seen any condition under which I would like to use it. It will NOT help help going up wind (see "tightness" of the genoa discussion above) and I don't much care going down wind because the boat is a slug going down wind anyway. Besides, tacking downwind has a greater VMG. I bought an Asym, let's see how that works.

My CD-27 can do neither, because the shrouds get in the way of the genoa sheet when tightly pulled in.

~~~~This is correct. Remember an over sheeted Genni does not make a CD point any higher, due to the limitations of a short full keel.[end]~~~~

On my CD-27, the genoa does not begin to get to be "oversheeted" when I'm trying to point higher into the wind. But thanks for your advice.

..."more sails" always means "less performance" than the same boat with fewer sails (in ascending performance, - cutter rig ketch, - "sloop rig" ketch, - twin head sail sloop, cutter, sloop, cat boat).
...

~~~~Have you ever sailed a Catboat?~~~~

And ..... have YOU ever flown in ANY airplane with dual wings? Aircraft with dual wings (except some specialty aircraft) went out of production 80 years ago.

Cat boats develop more lift per square foot of sail area compared to sloops. This is because the (only) sail flies in clean air, as opposed to the downwind sail in a two sail rig flying in dirty air. There is a racing class (which name I can not recall) where (for all practical purposes) the ONLY thing controlled about the sail is TOTAL area. No sloop has been competitive in that class since 1964, only cat boats.

[drysuit2]

Good luck with your CD27.

[WaywardWind]

Luck is where opportunity and good planning meet.

Last year, in the State of New York, about 100 people bought winning Lotto tickets ... while 4.5 billion others bought loosers.

Early in my career, I heard a mentor say (many times), "The harder I work, the luckier I get." My brother said many a time, "Pay attention, GD it!"

I rounded Cape Hatteras at night in 4 knots of wind. Eighteen hours later wind against the Gulf Stream made for "square" 50 foot waves.

Luck?

I don't think so, for I watched the weather forecast like a hawk and was FULLY prepared to divert early on (and came within twenty seconds of doing so when no one onboard could see the marker we needed to see. I saw it, and then another crew did as well). A different boat, I walked off of sank two weeks later well offshore at sea. (The hair on the back on my neck stood on end.)

Luck is grilling hamburgers on the taft rail because one can't be bothered to check even the Weather Channel yesterday afternoon, let alone 500mb three days ahead of time.

[drysuit2]

Luck is where opportunity and good planning meet.

Last year, in the State of New York, about 100 people bought winning Lotto tickets ... while 4.5 billion others bought loosers.

Early in my career, I heard a mentor say (many times), "The harder I work, the luckier I get." My brother said many a time, "Pay attention, GD it!"

I rounded Cape Hatteras at night in 4 knots of wind. Eighteen hours later wind against the Gulf Stream made for "square" 50 foot waves.

Luck?

I don't think so, for I watched the weather forecast like a hawk and was FULLY prepared to divert early on (and came within twenty seconds of doing so when no one onboard could see the marker we needed to see. I saw it, and then another crew did as well). A different boat, I walked off of sank two weeks later well offshore at sea. (The hair on the back on my neck stood on end.)

Luck is grilling hamburgers on the taft rail because one can't be bothered to check even the Weather Channel yesterday afternoon, let alone 500mb three days ahead of time.

OK then, then Best of luck you you.
If you ever get to the Port Washington area; I know of several excellent sailing teachers, riggers, and mechanics who could be of assistance.

But I am unable to teach you anything. Sorry. It's not your fault, it's mine. I guess were breaking up.

I will miss, your wit and charm. You have given me such joy and laughter.

PM me if you ever get to my neck of the woods. You are always welcome.
We could even go to Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome, and fly in a Bi Plane. I's been year since I've done that.