4" water over floorboards, OH, NO!!!

[Donna Delahanty]

my mbiggest -problem now is that i do not know which position my head is in, visions of slowly sinking keeping me from sleep. my head sits on a 1" piece of starboard. i wonder iof this is to raise it above sea level. until i read this i had notgiven it much thought, now i am giving it a lot. my last boat had a portapotty. i do not know which is more repulsive-emptying it or doing the holding tank. i sure will check my seacocks and flush valve when i go to the boat tomorrow, that is after they raise her, if need be. i keep telling myself that the marina would have called if she had sunk.

p.s. when i had SKUA surveyed last fall, i asked about an intake vented loop and was told it is unnecessary.


john churchill

John,

If the fill water in your head rises to the rim and overflows, your head is below the waterline. The water will only rise to the level of the waterline. There are at least two boats in my marina that raised their heads above the waterline to prevent the accidental overflow. This has solved their problem. This method even works while sailing.
Of course when they leave the boat for the weekend, they do close all thruhulls.

To test where your waterline is, you can attach a hose (clear, so you can see the water)to the water intake and raise or lower the hose to see where the water stops overflowing. You would want to raise the head so the rim is at least at this level, but, higher is recommended to avoid spilling from sloshing when on a tack.

Donna Delahanty



maxg@fuse.net

[D. Stump, Hanalei]

Thanks to all of you that responded! I now know that this is a "common mode" failure, and will be much more observant in the future. Also, the Purser has informed the Captain that rations of grog will be severly limited in the future! (Going to have to talk to that Purser!!)

Just so you know, there apparently was no lasting damage. The holding tank was empty to start with, so no sewage ended up in the boat. The salt water was only in the cabin for about 8 hours, so the sole and settee fronts were not water damaged. In all, it was a good, if unpleasant education.

Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30

[Ryan Turner]

It should be pretty easy to determine which position your head is in. If you pump the head and it draws raw water in to rinse the bowl it's in the wet flush position. If no rinse water enters the bowl then it's in the dry flush position. Whichever position it's in switch it to the other and note the difference in how the head reacts to pumping. Then you'll know which position is which.



rdtec@aol.com

[Larry DeMers]

Holy Cow Dave!! Glad that you found her in time..no, the CD30's head water supply was originally plumbed directly in, and I believe you are correct about the anti-siphon not working on a suction line like that.

Here is what we do to ward off the wet family jewels and other stuff...
Leave seacock closed and head in dry-bowl. When you go to use it for just the errr, more liquid of the excretionary functions, do so in the dry position (the bowl..not you). Before leaving the boat for the weekend, you may want to shoot some water through to clear the pipes so to speak.
With the other more solid (usually) human byproduct, we allow the bowl to fill about 1/2 full, do our thing, then pump it out, adding water if needed..again, return the seacock and bowl lever to closed and dry respectively.
Give it a loving tap, and be on your way.

A story. A few years back, we were sailing aross Lake Superior..10 hours from port, 6 hours or more from destination, and only an occasional freighter for company. We had 15-25, 20+deg. heel to port, and good speed through large waves. Went down to the nav station (ice box with drop down hinged chart table) and was going to plot the position..but the water going in my shoes got my attention! That feeling of bile in the throat makes one move right-quick let me tell you. I tore the engine cover off and nothing was happening there..pulled the lever for the bilge pump out and began pumping like a mad man, not knowing how fast it was coming in..it was only a half hour since we had charted last time, so it had gone over the floor boards in that time. Wellm the level went down fine, and then I could hear the sound of a tinkle of water coming in to the bilge from the cockpit of all places!

I used a flashlight to find a little river flowing from the port side cockpit scupper..but how..where??? Well, there was a little story that led to the cause of the leak..which was a pencil tipped size rip in the hose that would only go under the water line when heeled more than 20 deg. to port, and it did so quite well. We tacked immediately, and then used some silicon adhesive squirted into that hole, then wrapped electrical tape around the hose and then put on a hose clamp slightly tightened over the tape. Tacked back to original course, and all was dry. 2 days later, we removed the hose clamp and tape,and it has been fine ever since.

Nothing gets a guy moving faster than that awful sinking feeling.

I'm glad that your story turned out fine!

Happy Sailing Dave~

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 ~~~~~~Sailing Lake Superior~~~~~~



demers@sgi.com

[Bill Goldsmith]

Just wanted to clarify some discussion on this thread about an intake vented loop. I got the idea originally from Nigel Calder's Boatowner's Mechanical and Electrical Manual. There is a well-illustrated diagram showing an intake vented loop. Note that the diagram shows a hose going directly from the seacock to the pump on the head. The output hose on the pump goes to the vented loop, then to the bowl. Therefore, the pump is PUSHING the water through the vented loop into the bowl, and should work. This would only work on heads where a hose is used to connect the pump to the bowl. Obviously you can't put the loop between the seacock and the pump because you'd be tryng to PULL through the loop, exactly what it is designed to prevent.

Certainly not a panacea, and not a substitute for closing the seacocks, but probably not a bad bit of safety design.

Holy Cow Dave!! Glad that you found her in time..no, the CD30's head water supply was originally plumbed directly in, and I believe you are correct about the anti-siphon not working on a suction line like that.

Here is what we do to ward off the wet family jewels and other stuff...
Leave seacock closed and head in dry-bowl. When you go to use it for just the errr, more liquid of the excretionary functions, do so in the dry position (the bowl..not you). Before leaving the boat for the weekend, you may want to shoot some water through to clear the pipes so to speak.
With the other more solid (usually) human byproduct, we allow the bowl to fill about 1/2 full, do our thing, then pump it out, adding water if needed..again, return the seacock and bowl lever to closed and dry respectively.
Give it a loving tap, and be on your way.

A story. A few years back, we were sailing aross Lake Superior..10 hours from port, 6 hours or more from destination, and only an occasional freighter for company. We had 15-25, 20+deg. heel to port, and good speed through large waves. Went down to the nav station (ice box with drop down hinged chart table) and was going to plot the position..but the water going in my shoes got my attention! That feeling of bile in the throat makes one move right-quick let me tell you. I tore the engine cover off and nothing was happening there..pulled the lever for the bilge pump out and began pumping like a mad man, not knowing how fast it was coming in..it was only a half hour since we had charted last time, so it had gone over the floor boards in that time. Wellm the level went down fine, and then I could hear the sound of a tinkle of water coming in to the bilge from the cockpit of all places!

I used a flashlight to find a little river flowing from the port side cockpit scupper..but how..where??? Well, there was a little story that led to the cause of the leak..which was a pencil tipped size rip in the hose that would only go under the water line when heeled more than 20 deg. to port, and it did so quite well. We tacked immediately, and then used some silicon adhesive squirted into that hole, then wrapped electrical tape around the hose and then put on a hose clamp slightly tightened over the tape. Tacked back to original course, and all was dry. 2 days later, we removed the hose clamp and tape,and it has been fine ever since.

Nothing gets a guy moving faster than that awful sinking feeling.

I'm glad that your story turned out fine!

Happy Sailing Dave~

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 ~~~~~~Sailing Lake Superior~~~~~~

goldy@bestweb.net

[Neil Gordon]

Dave,

With the seacock open and the valve in the fill position, the bowl on LIQUIDITY will fill to sea level, which is about half way up the bowl. Won't overflow unless the boat is well over on a stbd tack.


Regards, Neil
s/v LIQUIDITY
Cape Dory 28 #167



neil@nrgordon.com

[Don S.]

If you're moored, the head could "pump" with wave action and overflow. The resulting splashing could, concievably, fill the bilge and sink the boat. This is less of a danger at a marina, but there's nothing like following a checklist before the boat is left alone. My seacocks are closed even when leaving the boat for a few minutes. I am not at all comfortable about leaving the cockpit drains open but there's no choice there.

Don Sargeant
~~COQUINA~~
CD25D #189
Greenwich Cove

Dave,

With the seacock open and the valve in the fill position, the bowl on LIQUIDITY will fill to sea level, which is about half way up the bowl. Won't overflow unless the boat is well over on a stbd tack.


Regards, Neil
s/v LIQUIDITY
Cape Dory 28 #167

don@cliggott.com

[Neil gordon]

>>If you're moored, the head could "pump" with wave action and overflow.<<

It takes more than one failure to sink a boat. Sloshing should be more than within the capability of the bilge pump.

I agree that the seacocks should be closed whenever possible... the head intake on LIQUIDITY pretty much stays that way, since we have a recirculating head. Nontheless, I implore my guests to close the intake valve on the head, and note that leaving it open under certain circumstances could sink the boat. It gets their attention and is good practice in any event.

Not much to do about the cockpit drain seacocks... and... if a hose there fails it's a larger hole in the boat than from any other thru hull!


Regards, Neil
s/v LIQUIDITY
Cape Dory 28 #167



neil@nrgordon.com

[Neil Gordon]

Dave,

What happened to the automatic bilge pump?


Regards, Neil
s/v LIQUIDITY
Cape Dory 28 #167



neil@nrgordon.com

[john churchill]

went down to my boat today and she was still afloat. this discussion has made me much more aware of potential problems. the seacocks will remain closed when not in use.

[D. Stump, Hanalei]

Neil,
Yes, the float switch is broken, bilge pump does work on manual though, and that's what I used to pump her out. Maybe it is time for a new switch!

Dave

[Catherine Monaghan]

Dave,

Keep all seacocks closed when the boat's not in use and you shouldn't have this type of experience again.

Even if the valve handles on the toilet are set to the correct position, the boat can flood. All you need is a bit of debris stuck in the pump's diaphram. That's enough for water to come in, especially while the boat's under sail. (We've had this happen on Realization.)

catherine_monaghan@merck.com
CD32 Realization
Raritan Bay

Had quite the experience on Hanalei Saturday morning. Opened the hatch, went down the companionway, and stepped into 4" of sea water over the cabin sole! We had a couple of friends aboard for cocktails Friday evening before going out to dinner, drank a considerable amount of grog! The lady asked, just before we left, "Does the head work?". I said yes, and she partook of the amenities. Well, the skipper did NOT check the valve lineup on the head before we left. The guest had left the head in "flush" with the thru hull open, so Hanalei immediately began to sink! I learned a valuable lesson. It was only because of the right flow rate, and the right elapsed time, that I caught the problem before any damage was caused. The water didn't even touch the engine, and only wetted some loose gear in the two lockers under the setee's.

The question is, is there a way to set up the head plumbing so that this wouldn't happen even if someone left the valves in the wrong position? Or, is my head in need of a valve rebuild? In other words, should the head not fill if the valve is in flush with thru hull open?

Any suggestions would be appreciated. Oh, by the way, after spending Saturday afternoon hosing her out, drying her out, we went out Sunday morning. 15 to 25 knot winds, SW, under main and jib, and she did just fine! Had a great first sail!

Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30

catherine_monaghan@merck.com