Groco head Model HF

rtbates · Post by **rtbates** » Feb 5th, '07, 16:16

Seems my Groco Model HF head pump won't prime. Last outing I did finally get it to prime after lots of pump action. Anyone have a clue as to the most likely culprit. I hate to buy a rebuild kit when I probably only need one part, or better yet lube something like the pump shaft gasket. I've been studying the exploded drawing trying to figure out what could possibly be at fault, but nothing jumps out. I did notice a big lack of resistance when moving the pump handle up and down. I does flush Ok, just can't get any water in.

thanks for listening

Dick Barthel · Post by **Dick Barthel** » Feb 5th, '07, 16:35

Randy,

I've got the same problem and I've taken to flushing fresh water in the bowl. Not sure I want to go back to sea flushes. I got a lot of responses when I posted on the same subject same problem sometime in 2006. Mine flushes fine if you put water in the bowl but it won't draw anything through the seacock.

Dick

rtbates · Post by **rtbates** » Feb 5th, '07, 17:01

Dick Barthel wrote:Randy,

I've got the same problem and I've taken to flushing fresh water in the bowl. Not sure I want to go back to sea flushes. I got a lot of responses when I posted on the same subject same problem sometime in 2006. Mine flushes fine if you put water in the bowl but it won't draw anything through the seacock.

Dick

Hey Dick:"

That's certainly one way to skin the cat. I'm hoping to make mine prime like it used to. Seems the culprit is lack of use.

thanks

s.v. LaVida · Post by **s.v. LaVida** » Feb 5th, '07, 17:45

Randy,

Try taking the plunger out and examining the wiper gasket on the end. Lots of times they wear and lose contact with the barrel.

In addition, the flapper valves may have some buildup on them or the spring might be shot. Cleaning will usually give you some performance.

However, I've found that if one part fails, you can get it going for a bit, but a rebuild kit is in the offing.

Rit

rtbates · Post by **rtbates** » Feb 5th, '07, 18:13

s.v. LaVida wrote:Randy,

Try taking the plunger out and examining the wiper gasket on the end. Lots of times they wear and lose contact with the barrel.

In addition, the flapper valves may have some buildup on them or the spring might be shot. Cleaning will usually give you some performance.

However, I've found that if one part fails, you can get it going for a bit, but a rebuild kit is in the offing.

Rit

Rit:

That's looking like one of my weekend projects. I'm hoping to be able to remove the entire pump assy and take it home for teardown.

tks

John Danicic · Post by **John Danicic** » Feb 5th, '07, 18:31

While you are at it, get the rebuild kit. Rebuilding the Groco head pump was the only boat project I have ever done that took less time then I thought it would.

Sail on.

John Danicic
CD 36 - Mariah - #124
Lake Superior

Russell · Post by **Russell** » Feb 5th, '07, 20:47

I have to agree with getting a rebuild kit. If one thing is failing the rest is likely ready to fail soon. Might as well do the rebuild and let at least one system not worry you for a bit. I live aboard full time so my head gets heavy use, when I bought my boat I decided to just buy an entire new head... I was looking into replacing the seat, the pump, etc... by the time i added everything up, it cost as much just to buy an entire new head rather then buy the peices I wanted to replace. Something to consider if your boat is older, the Groco HF isnt an expensive head, before going to rebuild things, think how nice a brand new one is, no previous owners having ever used it, nice and clean.

I do keep 2 rebuild kits on board though, even after replacing the head, with frequent use I often have to replace various bits, and often those bits can be cleaned and put back into action. I cant say enough about regular viniger flushes, followed by an flush with oil(I use vegetable oil, but if you want to spend more I think there is special head lubrication out there, I dont see the point though), that routine has done a lot to make my head run smoother, about once per month.

Russell

s.v. LaVida · Post by **s.v. LaVida** » Feb 5th, '07, 21:25

When I last spoke to Groco, they told me it would pay me to upgrade to the newer model as the new model was a whole lot more efficient.

This translates into less water in the holding tank per flush and less trips to the pumpout.

Rit

Ron M. · Post by **Ron M.** » Feb 6th, '07, 08:29

There was some discussion a while back re; rebuild or rebuy.
My experience was that for an additional 30 or 40 bucks or so you can get a brandy new one.
________
MEXICO CITY HOTELS

Steve Laume · Post by **Steve Laume** » Feb 6th, '07, 09:36

I went through this a couple of years ago. I talked to the Groco head guy and he was extremely helpful. Look for very small cracks around the flanges of the plastic pump. If yours is not cracked it would be okay to rebuild it. But you have got to ask yourself, "do you feel lucky?". What are the chances that after you go to all the work of cleaning and rebuilding the head, the plastic (20+ years old) will not crack when you put it back together or next week? I did rebuild the old one and spent even more money on a completely new head. There was no economy in that, Steve.

rtbates · Post by **rtbates** » Feb 6th, '07, 09:40

Russell wrote:I have to agree with getting a rebuild kit. If one thing is failing the rest is likely ready to fail soon. Might as well do the rebuild and let at least one system not worry you for a bit. I live aboard full time so my head gets heavy use, when I bought my boat I decided to just buy an entire new head... I was looking into replacing the seat, the pump, etc... by the time i added everything up, it cost as much just to buy an entire new head rather then buy the peices I wanted to replace. Something to consider if your boat is older, the Groco HF isnt an expensive head, before going to rebuild things, think how nice a brand new one is, no previous owners having ever used it, nice and clean.

I do keep 2 rebuild kits on board though, even after replacing the head, with frequent use I often have to replace various bits, and often those bits can be cleaned and put back into action. I cant say enough about regular viniger flushes, followed by an flush with oil(I use vegetable oil, but if you want to spend more I think there is special head lubrication out there, I dont see the point though), that routine has done a lot to make my head run smoother, about once per month.

Russell

Hey Russell:

The head is fairly new. I bought it just after we bought Seraph, maybe 5 years ago. It's the newer HF model. I agree that getting the rebuild kit is probably a good idea, if not for this repair then the next. I've come to believe that the main culprit had been lack of use and that led to the pump gasket drying out. I like the idea of the vineger/veg oil treatment. I assume the oil will help keep the seals lubricated. What I'm not looking forward to is taking the pump off. I assume that the bottom of the pump assy will contaqin whatever waste I can't get completely out of the system. I guess a few dozen buckets fills with water and flushes should help clear the pump assy. Good thing we have a pump at my docks as all waste goes to the holding tank. No direct discharge from the head. I can pump the contents of the holding tank overboard, by the way. BUT I don't seeing as how I'm on a lake!!

thanks for the response

Carl Thunberg · Post by **Carl Thunberg** » Feb 6th, '07, 10:31

Peggy Hall "The Headmistress" recommends against using oil. I attempted to search the archives of this forum http://www.sailboatowners.com/forums/menunew.tpl?fno=11, but couldn't get the search function to find anything. Peggy's reasoning behind not using oil is that it creates a sheen on the surface of the holding tank and contributes to an anaerobic environment which leads to head odors.

If Peggy Hall says it, I trust it. However, Russell lives on his boat and has good luck with it, so go figure. Maybe it works because he pumps so often. Maybe if you're like me, and your holding tank could potentially go several weeks between pumpouts, then it could be a problem.

rtbates · Post by **rtbates** » Feb 6th, '07, 11:20

Carl Thunberg wrote:Peggy Hall "The Headmistress" recommends against using oil. I attempted to search the archives of this forum http://www.sailboatowners.com/forums/menunew.tpl?fno=11, but couldn't get the search function to find anything. Peggy's reasoning behind not using oil is that it creates a sheen on the surface of the holding tank and contributes to an anaerobic environment which leads to head odors.

If Peggy Hall says it, I trust it. However, Russell lives on his boat and has good luck with it, so go figure. Maybe it works because he pumps so often. Maybe if you're like me, and your holding tank could potentially go several weeks between pumpouts, then it could be a problem.

Carl

I never heard that, but it makes sense. Our holding tank goes a long time between pumpouts for sure. Know of any other way to lube the piston seals w/o a teardown? Maybe an oil flush just before pumpout? Again, I'm just assuming that's my problem. The head's too darn new for cracks in the pump base, but I will check. It's only five years old and hasn't been abused. Surely a rebuild every five years is not normal. Is it???

Russell · Post by **Russell** » Feb 6th, '07, 12:08

Carl Thunberg wrote:Peggy Hall "The Headmistress" recommends against using oil. I attempted to search the archives of this forum http://www.sailboatowners.com/forums/menunew.tpl?fno=11, but couldn't get the search function to find anything. Peggy's reasoning behind not using oil is that it creates a sheen on the surface of the holding tank and contributes to an anaerobic environment which leads to head odors.

If Peggy Hall says it, I trust it. However, Russell lives on his boat and has good luck with it, so go figure. Maybe it works because he pumps so often. Maybe if you're like me, and your holding tank could potentially go several weeks between pumpouts, then it could be a problem.

Hey Carl, that makes complete sense. Though overtime the rubber gets sticky and the oil treatment goes a long way for making the head function far better(its like night and day). But the odar issue is something to consider. Since I am sailing in the caribbean where no pump outs exist and the bays are wide open and flush well, to be honest my discharge goes directly overboard, I havnt used my holding tank since leaving the US. I agree though, if Peggy says it, trust it, she is undoubtably the the authority on the subject. I wonder though if there is a non oil lubricant she suggests though?

Steve Laume · Post by **Steve Laume** » Feb 6th, '07, 12:54

Russell, how much oil are you using, when do you add it and how often do you lube the thing? Should I be pouring the sardine oil into the head and directly discharging it overboard whenever we have canned sardines or mussels? The direct discharge sounds like it would oil the works without adding an oil film to the holding tank and lines. Who could argue with fish and soy oil in the quantities needed, even if you were not 3 miles offshore? Not that I would do this. (Any DEP employees amongst us?) Seriously, I could easily add flushing a little vegetable oil to the things to do list while on an offshore run. It makes perfect sense for the pump to want some lubrication, Steve.

The Cape Dory Board

Groco head Model HF

Groco head Model HF

Same Problem

Re: Same Problem

prime

Re: prime

Groco rebuild kit

new head

New

Peggy Hall says not to use oil

Re: Peggy Hall says not to use oil

Re: Peggy Hall says not to use oil

How much oil