I'd like some feedback from CD30 owners about how effective you find the engine at motoring against strong wind and large seas. In my CD25D, I recently left an anchorage shortly after a CD36 and a CD30, all of us motoring directly into 4-6 foot seas and 15-20 knots of wind. To my amazement, my boat quickly overtook and passed both boats, and the 30 was particularly slow. All boats had long distances to go on an increasingly nasty day, so I assume all were at full speed. I'd guess we were doing about 4 1/2 knots, the 36 about 3 1/2, the 30 about 2 1/2 or less. I'm considering moving up to a 30, but this experience concerned me (while also making me love my 25D even more!). So, CD30 owners: what's the straight scoop? Also please comment on what it takes, wind- and sail-wise, to sail the boat at hull speed.
dabramson@mainephoto.com
motoring in CD-30
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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Andrew Blight
Re: motoring in CD-30
There is no doubt that the CD30-C is under-powered with the original Volvo MD7A. It does not make a very effective powerboat. You can get hull speed in flat water with a clean prop (barnacles rapidly remove the limited efficacy of the 2-blade prop). In a headwind and a lot of chop, you don't have much to answer with, but then it is supposed to be a sailboat, and sail it does very well.
Above 8-10 kt wind it is a romp, even with yankee and main, below that, or heading downwind you will need something bigger - I trade for a big drifter that pulls in wind it is otherwise hard to register. I initially had a roller furling genny, but that was overkill much of the time and too heavy for light airs. Above 15kt I need to reef the main to avoid weather helm. At higher wind speeds the staysail and reefed main are a nice, comfortable combination. I am often amazed at how well the CD30 sails, full keel and all, compared to bigger, lighter boats. The shoulder goes into the water, and off she goes, with barely concealed glee.
ablight@acorda.com
Above 8-10 kt wind it is a romp, even with yankee and main, below that, or heading downwind you will need something bigger - I trade for a big drifter that pulls in wind it is otherwise hard to register. I initially had a roller furling genny, but that was overkill much of the time and too heavy for light airs. Above 15kt I need to reef the main to avoid weather helm. At higher wind speeds the staysail and reefed main are a nice, comfortable combination. I am often amazed at how well the CD30 sails, full keel and all, compared to bigger, lighter boats. The shoulder goes into the water, and off she goes, with barely concealed glee.
ablight@acorda.com
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Patrick Turner
Re: motoring in CD-30
Most CD30 owners with the original engine will probably agree that the boat could benefit from a little more power. But there is enough power to get you where you need to go. Where you will feel the need for more power is if you are trying to make headway in rough seas with a lot of chop or when trying to turn into the wind against a good strong breeze or trying to motor against a good strong current. Sailing in the San Francisco Bay we get all of these conditions almost evertime I go out sailing and she gets me through just fine....sometimes slowly, but just fine. Now.....turn up the breeze to a stiff 25 knts, churn up the Bay with a lot of chop, drop 2 reefs in the main and sail with the stays'l only up front and you will feel very secure indeed.....and that is what is really important.
Pat Turner
CD30
patturner@earthlink.net
Pat Turner
CD30
patturner@earthlink.net
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Gary McDonough
Re: motoring in CD-30
Dean:
I traded up this year from a 25D to a 30. Mine is a 1984 with the Universal diesel and find that this engine is more than adequate to motor through anything. This summer I was in some nasty currents and head wind in Buzzards Bay at the mouth of the Cape Cod canal and had no problem heading up. Realistically I think you need over 10 knots of wind to move the boat. I have the Yankee on my boat and the only negative comment I have is sailing downwind. But who cares. It's sailing upwind that we live for.
The added interior room, the wheel steering, hot pressure water and shower are the principal reasons I traded up and I don't regret the decision for a minute.
BTW - I still love my old 25D. They also are great boats.
Good Luck
Gary
garym@taxinvest.com
I traded up this year from a 25D to a 30. Mine is a 1984 with the Universal diesel and find that this engine is more than adequate to motor through anything. This summer I was in some nasty currents and head wind in Buzzards Bay at the mouth of the Cape Cod canal and had no problem heading up. Realistically I think you need over 10 knots of wind to move the boat. I have the Yankee on my boat and the only negative comment I have is sailing downwind. But who cares. It's sailing upwind that we live for.
The added interior room, the wheel steering, hot pressure water and shower are the principal reasons I traded up and I don't regret the decision for a minute.
BTW - I still love my old 25D. They also are great boats.
Good Luck
Gary
garym@taxinvest.com
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D. Stump, Hanalei
Re: motoring in CD-30
Dean,
Just as Dean said in the previous post, I also have a CD-30 with the Universal 18, 14 HP diesel, and have not found any situation that she wouldn't power against. I did, years ago, run into a slight problem with my brother's CD-30B (also with the U-18). I was before the wind going into Block Island, and like a fool decided to furl the jib heading off the wind. The jib fouled in the furler, I had Carol head up, as we were on a lea shore, and went forward to try and untangle the mess. Carol had difficulty holding her to wind, it was blowing 25 knots, with main, stays'l and fouled jib up. I don't recall if Carol had the throttle wide open or not, but that may have been. Once I doussed the main and stays'l she headed to weather right smartly. Oh, the seas were 8 - 10 swells with 1 - 2 foot chop. Made for an exciting 15 minutes, but the boat handled our mistakes nicely.
Dave Stump
Captain commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30
Just as Dean said in the previous post, I also have a CD-30 with the Universal 18, 14 HP diesel, and have not found any situation that she wouldn't power against. I did, years ago, run into a slight problem with my brother's CD-30B (also with the U-18). I was before the wind going into Block Island, and like a fool decided to furl the jib heading off the wind. The jib fouled in the furler, I had Carol head up, as we were on a lea shore, and went forward to try and untangle the mess. Carol had difficulty holding her to wind, it was blowing 25 knots, with main, stays'l and fouled jib up. I don't recall if Carol had the throttle wide open or not, but that may have been. Once I doussed the main and stays'l she headed to weather right smartly. Oh, the seas were 8 - 10 swells with 1 - 2 foot chop. Made for an exciting 15 minutes, but the boat handled our mistakes nicely.
Dave Stump
Captain commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30
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Larry DeMers
Re: motoring in CD-30
With our CD30, we have motored this past summer 351 miles in one continuous stint..in fog and no wind. Did fine, maintaining 5.5 kts the whole way every day.
Previously, we have had to motor home through 55 kts/10fters with a period of 3 sec. This is a killer, as the boat is very busy going up and down, and will get slowed by the next wave front. More HP would not help here, unless the prop size were increased also. We found however, that if we tacked the boat 30 deg. either side of the winds direction, we were quickly up to 5 kts. forward speed. This is motoring only now. Sailing these winds is a different subject..and we have done it.Back to motoring however; We would tack every 4-5 minutes or so, and kept moving quite well. I do not want a larger engine in that boat. She is already too heavy in the rear, needing to have sand bags added behind the head holding tank to compensate for the out-of -balance condition. Now we have a sweet sailing vessel that can motor, motor sail or sail very well. As someone else said, we routinely beat most other 30-32 fters, and in fact I can brag here a bit. We finished 5th of 10 boats in a club race this summer. First race ever. The winds were almost nonexistant..and we would get so excited to see the knot meter register that we were on Ch72 chatting it up. Point is that our competitors were all 35-45 fters, and while we did benefit from the PHRF ratings, we did fairly well for a first time, and I feel that we will do only better as the wind speed increases.
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 ~~~~Sailing Lake Superior~~~~~~~
demers@sgi.com
Previously, we have had to motor home through 55 kts/10fters with a period of 3 sec. This is a killer, as the boat is very busy going up and down, and will get slowed by the next wave front. More HP would not help here, unless the prop size were increased also. We found however, that if we tacked the boat 30 deg. either side of the winds direction, we were quickly up to 5 kts. forward speed. This is motoring only now. Sailing these winds is a different subject..and we have done it.Back to motoring however; We would tack every 4-5 minutes or so, and kept moving quite well. I do not want a larger engine in that boat. She is already too heavy in the rear, needing to have sand bags added behind the head holding tank to compensate for the out-of -balance condition. Now we have a sweet sailing vessel that can motor, motor sail or sail very well. As someone else said, we routinely beat most other 30-32 fters, and in fact I can brag here a bit. We finished 5th of 10 boats in a club race this summer. First race ever. The winds were almost nonexistant..and we would get so excited to see the knot meter register that we were on Ch72 chatting it up. Point is that our competitors were all 35-45 fters, and while we did benefit from the PHRF ratings, we did fairly well for a first time, and I feel that we will do only better as the wind speed increases.
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 ~~~~Sailing Lake Superior~~~~~~~
I'd like some feedback from CD30 owners about how effective you find the engine at motoring against strong wind and large seas. In my CD25D, I recently left an anchorage shortly after a CD36 and a CD30, all of us motoring directly into 4-6 foot seas and 15-20 knots of wind. To my amazement, my boat quickly overtook and passed both boats, and the 30 was particularly slow. All boats had long distances to go on an increasingly nasty day, so I assume all were at full speed. I'd guess we were doing about 4 1/2 knots, the 36 about 3 1/2, the 30 about 2 1/2 or less. I'm considering moving up to a 30, but this experience concerned me (while also making me love my 25D even more!). So, CD30 owners: what's the straight scoop? Also please comment on what it takes, wind- and sail-wise, to sail the boat at hull speed.
demers@sgi.com
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HDHarris
Re: motoring in CD-30
Saw your message about motoring in CD30.
I own a CD28, close in size to CD30, and I recently replaced my 1978 Volvo MD7A with a 1999 Yanmar 2GM20. I boosted the boat's engine horse power from 13HP to 18HP. I replaced the engine to decrease engine down time risks, increase performance predictability and take advantage of cheaper, more readily available replacement parts, as I am embarking on a voyage.
Under either engine, in good weather conditions, my max boat speed, with engine only, is about 6 kts, the approx. design hull speed of boat. And, I am a bit overpowered with the new engine which weighs less than the older, tank armor Volvo.
In any event, I think you'll find with any well built, full keel boat that's partially or wholly loaded (mine displaces 15000LBS+ fully loaded, depending upon how many people and how much food, water, fuel and chain anchor rode I have on board), it is just not a speed boat on engine only. My "average" engine only speed is probably 5 - 5.5kts in good conditions, slow speeds I became very used to while motoring the Intracoastal Waterway from Pt. Bolivar, Texas to New Orleans, La.
The Yanmar I now have is a real horse. It runs at higher RPMS, and it has plenty of push power. My boat stern digs in sometimes when I run the throttle up high, a bit overpowered. But, I like power.
Under sail, the CD28 is a jewel, a good "sailing" boat. Offshore speeds in moderate chop run 6kts in 15-20kt winds. In these same conditions a couple of years ago, the boat won the offshore race from Freeport, Tx. to Galveston, Tx., the Harvest Moon Regatta, if I do brag a little bit here.
If the waves and swells are 8ft or less in heavier winds, the boat performs and handles amazingly well with stout 10oz 100 jib and double or triple reefed main. In larger waves and rougher conditions, just a storm jib or storm sail with Aries Windvane steering hooked up, the boat, although bounced around a bit, still handles and sails well albeit boat speed does slow to 3 to 4kts with the boat sailing like a scare horse jumping fences at 40 - 60 degree angles across wave tops. Turning on the engine in these conditions does help "Punch" thru, but I am now very leary about using the engine too much in rough conditions. I did that a year ago in the Gulf, and the engine movement coupled with boat movement sheered a motor mount off and bent another, creating a potential drive train, cutlass bearing damage risk. So, in rougher conditions, as long as safely away from land masses, instead of bucking into it, I hove to and ride it out with lots of strong hot coffee.
In conclusion, if you're really concerned about your engine and boat speed, from my experience, you should first have a good mechanic check out your current engine and make darn sure it's functioning okay. If it's not, then make the needed repairs and keep it in good running shape. Otherwise, you may want to carefully consider a new engine. It's amazing, at least to me, how much diesel engine technology has improved in last 15 or so years. I wouldn't trade my Yanmar for anything.
With all of that said, if your engine is perfectly okay AND it is at least the minimum power size for your boat, then it's my believe, from my experiences, that your boat speed, especially in a heavy full keel sailboat, is a function of many different factors which should be carefully considered at any given time before deciding the engine is junk, namely: propeller size/pitch, keel size/depth, boat load/weight, current direction/strength, water turbulence, tide conditions, wind, swell, chop, current convergence (i.e., river, canal and levee flow or drainage into ocean current), surrounding boat traffic turbulence (i.e., ship, barge and general boat wake conditions), etc. But even with "perfect" conditions and a "perfect" engine, your engine will still probably not push your boat too far beyond its design hull speed, usually 5 to 7 kts for conventional full keel sailboats.
In all events, for its small size, the CD28 is a darn good sailer as the CD30 probably is also. And, engine only boat speeds will never be "fast" - as I am sure most full keel sailboat owners know - we always seem to be just standing still as the weekend warrior, Miami Vice power boaters "Zing" past at mach speeds with cell phones in hand. However, those boaters and their fast cash boats will almost always get pounded to pieces offshore (most of those boats just aren't designed to handle much weather), when the CD28, from my experience, hunkers down and ventures onward at minimum expense, the wind being cost free.
Best of luck,
HDHarris
hdharris@juno.com
I own a CD28, close in size to CD30, and I recently replaced my 1978 Volvo MD7A with a 1999 Yanmar 2GM20. I boosted the boat's engine horse power from 13HP to 18HP. I replaced the engine to decrease engine down time risks, increase performance predictability and take advantage of cheaper, more readily available replacement parts, as I am embarking on a voyage.
Under either engine, in good weather conditions, my max boat speed, with engine only, is about 6 kts, the approx. design hull speed of boat. And, I am a bit overpowered with the new engine which weighs less than the older, tank armor Volvo.
In any event, I think you'll find with any well built, full keel boat that's partially or wholly loaded (mine displaces 15000LBS+ fully loaded, depending upon how many people and how much food, water, fuel and chain anchor rode I have on board), it is just not a speed boat on engine only. My "average" engine only speed is probably 5 - 5.5kts in good conditions, slow speeds I became very used to while motoring the Intracoastal Waterway from Pt. Bolivar, Texas to New Orleans, La.
The Yanmar I now have is a real horse. It runs at higher RPMS, and it has plenty of push power. My boat stern digs in sometimes when I run the throttle up high, a bit overpowered. But, I like power.
Under sail, the CD28 is a jewel, a good "sailing" boat. Offshore speeds in moderate chop run 6kts in 15-20kt winds. In these same conditions a couple of years ago, the boat won the offshore race from Freeport, Tx. to Galveston, Tx., the Harvest Moon Regatta, if I do brag a little bit here.
If the waves and swells are 8ft or less in heavier winds, the boat performs and handles amazingly well with stout 10oz 100 jib and double or triple reefed main. In larger waves and rougher conditions, just a storm jib or storm sail with Aries Windvane steering hooked up, the boat, although bounced around a bit, still handles and sails well albeit boat speed does slow to 3 to 4kts with the boat sailing like a scare horse jumping fences at 40 - 60 degree angles across wave tops. Turning on the engine in these conditions does help "Punch" thru, but I am now very leary about using the engine too much in rough conditions. I did that a year ago in the Gulf, and the engine movement coupled with boat movement sheered a motor mount off and bent another, creating a potential drive train, cutlass bearing damage risk. So, in rougher conditions, as long as safely away from land masses, instead of bucking into it, I hove to and ride it out with lots of strong hot coffee.
In conclusion, if you're really concerned about your engine and boat speed, from my experience, you should first have a good mechanic check out your current engine and make darn sure it's functioning okay. If it's not, then make the needed repairs and keep it in good running shape. Otherwise, you may want to carefully consider a new engine. It's amazing, at least to me, how much diesel engine technology has improved in last 15 or so years. I wouldn't trade my Yanmar for anything.
With all of that said, if your engine is perfectly okay AND it is at least the minimum power size for your boat, then it's my believe, from my experiences, that your boat speed, especially in a heavy full keel sailboat, is a function of many different factors which should be carefully considered at any given time before deciding the engine is junk, namely: propeller size/pitch, keel size/depth, boat load/weight, current direction/strength, water turbulence, tide conditions, wind, swell, chop, current convergence (i.e., river, canal and levee flow or drainage into ocean current), surrounding boat traffic turbulence (i.e., ship, barge and general boat wake conditions), etc. But even with "perfect" conditions and a "perfect" engine, your engine will still probably not push your boat too far beyond its design hull speed, usually 5 to 7 kts for conventional full keel sailboats.
In all events, for its small size, the CD28 is a darn good sailer as the CD30 probably is also. And, engine only boat speeds will never be "fast" - as I am sure most full keel sailboat owners know - we always seem to be just standing still as the weekend warrior, Miami Vice power boaters "Zing" past at mach speeds with cell phones in hand. However, those boaters and their fast cash boats will almost always get pounded to pieces offshore (most of those boats just aren't designed to handle much weather), when the CD28, from my experience, hunkers down and ventures onward at minimum expense, the wind being cost free.
Best of luck,
HDHarris
hdharris@juno.com
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Steve Alarcon
Re: motoring in CD-30
I agree with all that has been offered by the others. There is one additional consideration relative to speed...the cleanliness of the hull. Our MD7A pushes us along at 5.5-5.8 kts at 2000 RPM under most conditions, but when we need to have the hull cleaned that drops to 3.5 - 4.0. BTW, our little motor only uses .25 GPH in flat seas, and .40 GPH in 2-3' chop.
All of this being said, the CD30 is a sailing boat and is much more comfortable under sail in all conditions. Motoring in rough conditions can be hazardous to the engines health; e.g. Volvo recommends no more than 15 degrees heel when the engine is running.
Steve Alarcon
CD30 Temerity
Seattle
alarcon3@prodigy.com
All of this being said, the CD30 is a sailing boat and is much more comfortable under sail in all conditions. Motoring in rough conditions can be hazardous to the engines health; e.g. Volvo recommends no more than 15 degrees heel when the engine is running.
Steve Alarcon
CD30 Temerity
Seattle
alarcon3@prodigy.com
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Olli Wendelin
Re: motoring in CD-30
Dean,
My 1977 CD30 ketch has the original Yanmar YSB12 engine (10 HP) and a three bladed prop. We run at 5-5.5 knots at full throttle. Hull fouling can slow you down more than anything else. The three bladed prop probably provides more power than the two bladed props. We routinely run Elliot Cut against the tide, which can run 4 knots, complete with whirlpools.
I had one occasion running the Coosaw River with a strong headwind. With six foot seas and 12 to 15 ft water depths, at full throttle the boat was seesawing up and down with no forward motion. Tacking back and forth 30 degrees to the seas we were able to make headway in this narrow waterway. I don't believe more HP would have helped in this situation.
Olli Wendelin
BLUE MOON
Charleston, SC
wendelin@spawar.navy.mil
My 1977 CD30 ketch has the original Yanmar YSB12 engine (10 HP) and a three bladed prop. We run at 5-5.5 knots at full throttle. Hull fouling can slow you down more than anything else. The three bladed prop probably provides more power than the two bladed props. We routinely run Elliot Cut against the tide, which can run 4 knots, complete with whirlpools.
I had one occasion running the Coosaw River with a strong headwind. With six foot seas and 12 to 15 ft water depths, at full throttle the boat was seesawing up and down with no forward motion. Tacking back and forth 30 degrees to the seas we were able to make headway in this narrow waterway. I don't believe more HP would have helped in this situation.
Olli Wendelin
BLUE MOON
Charleston, SC
wendelin@spawar.navy.mil