Hood furling problem
Moderator: Jim Walsh
Hood furling problem
I have problem with the furling system on our CD25D I hope someone can help with. The jib pumps hard when the boat is in moderate to heavy winds shaking the whole boat. This cannot be good for the rigging. I tightened the forward stay under the furling system and it helped but I am not sure how much more to tighten it. Anyone have this problem? How would you gauge how much to tighten the stay if you cannot see it? Any help would be appreciated.
Pumping Jib?
I don't know what happens when the jib "pumps", but you might want to try tightening the **backstay**, and easing the forestay slightly.
What you want to do is keep the forestay long enough so that the foil is under some tension. That straightens it out. Tensioning the backstay adds pressure to keep it straight. The result ( I hope) will be a quieter ride, as well as a jib that is easy to raise.
Now, adjusting these two stays will cause a change in weather helm, since you will move the center of effort by tightening and loosening the stays. Thus your boat will steer a little differently.
Good sailing!
________
MERCEDES-BENZ HISTORY
________
MAINE MEDICAL MARIJUANA DISPENSARIES
What you want to do is keep the forestay long enough so that the foil is under some tension. That straightens it out. Tensioning the backstay adds pressure to keep it straight. The result ( I hope) will be a quieter ride, as well as a jib that is easy to raise.
Now, adjusting these two stays will cause a change in weather helm, since you will move the center of effort by tightening and loosening the stays. Thus your boat will steer a little differently.
Good sailing!
________
MERCEDES-BENZ HISTORY
________
MAINE MEDICAL MARIJUANA DISPENSARIES
Last edited by Bob Luby on Feb 14th, '11, 10:30, edited 2 times in total.
jib pumping?
The first thing that comes to mind is what direction is the rigging moving under these conditions? I suspect the stays are not tuned properly and the rig shakes side to side and not front to back.
Another option is the jib is not properly trimmed for the weather. I get a good shake going if my jib is not hardened up enough or the wind shifts. That said things need to be quite a bit out of adjustment for this to happen. Along with this, the jib may be out of shape and not trimming well. My old jib stretched out and lost shape making it very hard to adjust correctly. I suggest having the sail evaluated by a sailmaker with this problem in mind.
Another consideration is the placement of the pully car on the track. If too far back the pull from the sheet will not tighten the leech of the sail sufficinently and the upper portion of the jib will flap. Is it possible you have the sheets lead to the wrong track? I have two tracks, one for the 135 and one for the working jib. The sails will not trim if sheet lead is on the wrong track.
Some jibs have a leech line which serves to tighten the leech. It either adds or removes body to the sail shape by curling the leech. If tighten too much for the wind conditions then that may be part of the problem.
Since you didnt say what conditions or which sail is causing the conditions I am at a bit of a loss as to which is the most likely cause.
Boyd
s/v Tern
CD30 MkII
Fort Lauderdale, Fla.
Another option is the jib is not properly trimmed for the weather. I get a good shake going if my jib is not hardened up enough or the wind shifts. That said things need to be quite a bit out of adjustment for this to happen. Along with this, the jib may be out of shape and not trimming well. My old jib stretched out and lost shape making it very hard to adjust correctly. I suggest having the sail evaluated by a sailmaker with this problem in mind.
Another consideration is the placement of the pully car on the track. If too far back the pull from the sheet will not tighten the leech of the sail sufficinently and the upper portion of the jib will flap. Is it possible you have the sheets lead to the wrong track? I have two tracks, one for the 135 and one for the working jib. The sails will not trim if sheet lead is on the wrong track.
Some jibs have a leech line which serves to tighten the leech. It either adds or removes body to the sail shape by curling the leech. If tighten too much for the wind conditions then that may be part of the problem.
Since you didnt say what conditions or which sail is causing the conditions I am at a bit of a loss as to which is the most likely cause.
Boyd
s/v Tern
CD30 MkII
Fort Lauderdale, Fla.
Thanks for reply
Sorry it took so long for me to get back to my post. I have been working on getting my engine to run at the right rpm. No luck on that problem ether. The shrouds on the lee side go slack when i tack but that has to be normal. My Typhoon never had this problem but it had hanked on sails. I guess it could be that sail is out of shape but that would be more than my expertise could see. Like I said I tightened the forward stay and got it got better but I cannot tell if the line is loose because the roller furling covers the line. When I shake the line the roller furling seems loose but the aft stay seems tight. I guess I will just tighten it some more and find me a windy day and see what happens. I would hate to hog the boat.
I highly recommend hiring a professional rigger to come out and do a rig tuning. Its generally not terribly expensive and you will learn a lot, more so then you will reading books or internet boards. Rig tuning is an art, and is much more feel and experience then simply specific tension. As already suggested, sometimes its the backstay that needs tightening rather then the forstay, but its impossible to know which unless one is there on the boat. Forstay tension is tough to gauge due to the furler, it will always seem more slack then it actually is, this is because the weight of the furler, this is an area only expeirence can gauge. If you have a cutter rig it complicates things even more.
I wouldnt claim myself to be a good rig tuner, but after a couple professional tunings, where I was present, asking questions, I have learned a lot, like about how to sight up the mast to check the rake, how to judge tension by feel, etc...
Tension gauges are dangerous, they certainly appear to make sense in theory, but since if one shroud is a fraction of a millimeter shorter then another the tension will actually vary, a tuned rig most likely wont have identical tension across everything. Sighting up the mast and adjusting by feel is the only way the pros do it, and for good reason.
A pro rigger is worth every penny, and you will likely see a drastic difference in your sail performance as well, your boat will balance better, point higher, sail faster and ultimately be safer. A good rigger will ask about your sailing and tune accordingly. We spend insane amounts of money on our boats, yet we also like to skimp whereever we can, but this is not someplace I personally like to skimp, though I do hope one day after enough tunings I will have learned the art well enough to be confident in doing it myself.
I wouldnt claim myself to be a good rig tuner, but after a couple professional tunings, where I was present, asking questions, I have learned a lot, like about how to sight up the mast to check the rake, how to judge tension by feel, etc...
Tension gauges are dangerous, they certainly appear to make sense in theory, but since if one shroud is a fraction of a millimeter shorter then another the tension will actually vary, a tuned rig most likely wont have identical tension across everything. Sighting up the mast and adjusting by feel is the only way the pros do it, and for good reason.
A pro rigger is worth every penny, and you will likely see a drastic difference in your sail performance as well, your boat will balance better, point higher, sail faster and ultimately be safer. A good rigger will ask about your sailing and tune accordingly. We spend insane amounts of money on our boats, yet we also like to skimp whereever we can, but this is not someplace I personally like to skimp, though I do hope one day after enough tunings I will have learned the art well enough to be confident in doing it myself.
Russell
s/v (yet to be named) Tayana 42CC
s/v Lady Pauline Cape Dory 36 #117 (for sale)
s/v (yet to be named) Tayana 42CC
s/v Lady Pauline Cape Dory 36 #117 (for sale)
-
Sea Hunt
- Posts: 1310
- Joined: Jan 29th, '06, 23:14
- Location: Former caretaker of 1977 Cape Dory Typhoon Weekender (Hull #1400) "S/V Tadpole"
Littlebit:
Is your CD 25D the one that was in Key Largo? I looked at one in Key Largo about a year ago, although the owner said he was moving her up to Miami. It was a 1982, hull #60. The owner was a member of the Coconut Grove Sailing Club.
I wish you well with your rig tuning. I weigh about 210 (trying to get down below 200) and would never think of going up a mast, although, being "sailboatless" for now, it's not really an issue - yet.
Is your CD 25D the one that was in Key Largo? I looked at one in Key Largo about a year ago, although the owner said he was moving her up to Miami. It was a 1982, hull #60. The owner was a member of the Coconut Grove Sailing Club.
I wish you well with your rig tuning. I weigh about 210 (trying to get down below 200) and would never think of going up a mast, although, being "sailboatless" for now, it's not really an issue - yet.
Fair winds,
Robert
Sea Hunt a/k/a "The Tadpole Sailor"
CDSOA #1097
Robert
Sea Hunt a/k/a "The Tadpole Sailor"
CDSOA #1097
Thats us!
Yes that’s the boat. Needed lots of work but getting close. I am closer to 240 but everyone says going up should not be a problem. I would not have even tried to go up on the Typhoon but this is a heavier boat. Anyway for this problem there is no need. I guess I will have to think hard about getting someone to look at the tuning of the stays but being cheap and proud hard to bit my tongue and open my wallet.
-
Ron Brassord
- Posts: 87
- Joined: Nov 3rd, '05, 16:44
- Location: Cape Dory 22 Cd14s
Pumping jib
I came up with much the same problem with my CD 22. I installed a new Harkin furler and have two sails, a new 130 genoa, and an old working jib. The genoa works perfectly in all conditions, but the jib pumped violently--scary actually.
I played with the shroud tension and took it up as much as I dared, and that helped some.
Looking at the jib under load, I realized it had an extreme "belly" from years of use. I took up the halyard as hard as i could winch it, and that did flatten the jib considerably. It also reduced the pumping noticeably. As mentioned, setting the sail properly is most effective.
While I can't say for sure, I think my "pumping' is caused by the bad blown out condition of the old jib more than anything else.
Hope that helps.
Good sailing
Ron B Lighthouse Point FL
I played with the shroud tension and took it up as much as I dared, and that helped some.
Looking at the jib under load, I realized it had an extreme "belly" from years of use. I took up the halyard as hard as i could winch it, and that did flatten the jib considerably. It also reduced the pumping noticeably. As mentioned, setting the sail properly is most effective.
While I can't say for sure, I think my "pumping' is caused by the bad blown out condition of the old jib more than anything else.
Hope that helps.
Good sailing
Ron B Lighthouse Point FL
Things to do
Sea Hunt
The final price was $10,000. I am not sure that was a great price but considering there are very few 25D I have seen in the area and my own eagerness I now have it. The problems I have had and things repaired so far bottom paint, new sea water thru hull and ball valve, new prop, broken lazy jacks, rebuild head, weld broken bow pulpit, broken life lines, oil change, new Rancor secondary filter, new primary filter, new fuel lines, new jib halyard, new batteries and I am sure there are other small things.
Things still on the list are low max rpm, leaking seacocks, pumping jib, new lines, gelcoat cosmetics, leaking trans, pressurized water, new raw water lines and a host of thing I have forgotten or will find later.
I motored and sailed all the way from Miami to Ft Pierce. I did have it at a ship yard but everything went fine except never could get above 2500 rpm but hat seemed to push me along at about 5 knots. I want to say I used about 7 gallons. I was on the outside from Biscayne Bay to Ft. Lauderdale, inside to West Palm, outside to Jupiter, inside to Stuart, outside to Ft Pierce.
The final price was $10,000. I am not sure that was a great price but considering there are very few 25D I have seen in the area and my own eagerness I now have it. The problems I have had and things repaired so far bottom paint, new sea water thru hull and ball valve, new prop, broken lazy jacks, rebuild head, weld broken bow pulpit, broken life lines, oil change, new Rancor secondary filter, new primary filter, new fuel lines, new jib halyard, new batteries and I am sure there are other small things.
Things still on the list are low max rpm, leaking seacocks, pumping jib, new lines, gelcoat cosmetics, leaking trans, pressurized water, new raw water lines and a host of thing I have forgotten or will find later.
I motored and sailed all the way from Miami to Ft Pierce. I did have it at a ship yard but everything went fine except never could get above 2500 rpm but hat seemed to push me along at about 5 knots. I want to say I used about 7 gallons. I was on the outside from Biscayne Bay to Ft. Lauderdale, inside to West Palm, outside to Jupiter, inside to Stuart, outside to Ft Pierce.
New Jib
Ron
It sounds like you had the problem I’m having. I will try to tighten the halyard real tight and see what happens. I don’t have another headsail to put on but maybe a new genoa is in order.
I just have convince the wife food is a luxury we can do with out but a geona is essential to life.
It sounds like you had the problem I’m having. I will try to tighten the halyard real tight and see what happens. I don’t have another headsail to put on but maybe a new genoa is in order.
I just have convince the wife food is a luxury we can do with out but a geona is essential to life.
-
Sea Hunt
- Posts: 1310
- Joined: Jan 29th, '06, 23:14
- Location: Former caretaker of 1977 Cape Dory Typhoon Weekender (Hull #1400) "S/V Tadpole"
Littlebit:
When I looked at this CD 25D in August 2005, the owner wanted $17,500 "as is". He was unwilling at that time to negotiate a lower purchase price, even based on results of a to-be-done survey.
I knew (and still know) very little about marine diesel engines. However, when I inspected this CD 25D there was a significant amount of caked on crud all over the engine, including the oil filler cap. Overall, she did not seem well cared for. Because of my lack of knowledge and experience I did not want to take the risk. Also, both the house and starter batteries were both "dead" when I inspected her. Again, with my lack of expertise, etc., this was not a good sign. I assume experienced sailors and owners may have dismissed this as "no big deal".
You obviously have the experience and knowledge to bring her back to "bristol". Candidly, when I am next up in the Fort Pierce area I would enjoy seeing what she looks like after she has been cared for by someone who loves and wants to care for a CD.
From what I have observed over the past two years, the price of $10,000 seems fair. There was one CD 25D that I had looked at in Georgia that was eventually sold for $11,000 - $11,500. She was in better shape that the CD 25D in Key Largo although she did not have roller furling. If my notes are accurate, your CD 25D had a Hood (705 SeaFurl??) furling system, albeit very old.
The owner of the Georgia CD 25D was unwilling to allow a marine survey. I do not know why, however, this was a big red flag for me. I assume the eventual buyer was either very knowledgeable about the various systems, structure, etc. (and did not really need a survey), or he was able to convince the seller to allow a survey.
I am glad to know the CD 25D (hull #60) is now owned by someone who will restore her and keep her "bristol".
Fair Winds,
When I looked at this CD 25D in August 2005, the owner wanted $17,500 "as is". He was unwilling at that time to negotiate a lower purchase price, even based on results of a to-be-done survey.
I knew (and still know) very little about marine diesel engines. However, when I inspected this CD 25D there was a significant amount of caked on crud all over the engine, including the oil filler cap. Overall, she did not seem well cared for. Because of my lack of knowledge and experience I did not want to take the risk. Also, both the house and starter batteries were both "dead" when I inspected her. Again, with my lack of expertise, etc., this was not a good sign. I assume experienced sailors and owners may have dismissed this as "no big deal".
You obviously have the experience and knowledge to bring her back to "bristol". Candidly, when I am next up in the Fort Pierce area I would enjoy seeing what she looks like after she has been cared for by someone who loves and wants to care for a CD.
From what I have observed over the past two years, the price of $10,000 seems fair. There was one CD 25D that I had looked at in Georgia that was eventually sold for $11,000 - $11,500. She was in better shape that the CD 25D in Key Largo although she did not have roller furling. If my notes are accurate, your CD 25D had a Hood (705 SeaFurl??) furling system, albeit very old.
The owner of the Georgia CD 25D was unwilling to allow a marine survey. I do not know why, however, this was a big red flag for me. I assume the eventual buyer was either very knowledgeable about the various systems, structure, etc. (and did not really need a survey), or he was able to convince the seller to allow a survey.
I am glad to know the CD 25D (hull #60) is now owned by someone who will restore her and keep her "bristol".
Fair Winds,
Fair winds,
Robert
Sea Hunt a/k/a "The Tadpole Sailor"
CDSOA #1097
Robert
Sea Hunt a/k/a "The Tadpole Sailor"
CDSOA #1097
-
Sea Hunt
- Posts: 1310
- Joined: Jan 29th, '06, 23:14
- Location: Former caretaker of 1977 Cape Dory Typhoon Weekender (Hull #1400) "S/V Tadpole"
Littlebit:
I forgot to mention riggers. When I was looking at costs to re-rig a CD 25D (after transporting one from wherever to Miami) I talked with several marinas and experienced sailors. I got a list of riggers. One name was consistently on everyone's list:
Christian Dan.
If interested send me a PM and I will give you his phone number. I initially put it in this message and then realized that may not be agood idea.
I do not know if he works as far north as Fort Pierce, but you may want to call him and, if not, perhaps he can give a recommendation.
Given my continuing lack of CD ownership, some may well say looking for a rigger was a classic example of "putting the cart before the horse." Sorry, but I could not think of a good nautical comparison.
Good luck
I forgot to mention riggers. When I was looking at costs to re-rig a CD 25D (after transporting one from wherever to Miami) I talked with several marinas and experienced sailors. I got a list of riggers. One name was consistently on everyone's list:
Christian Dan.
If interested send me a PM and I will give you his phone number. I initially put it in this message and then realized that may not be agood idea.
I do not know if he works as far north as Fort Pierce, but you may want to call him and, if not, perhaps he can give a recommendation.
Given my continuing lack of CD ownership, some may well say looking for a rigger was a classic example of "putting the cart before the horse." Sorry, but I could not think of a good nautical comparison.
Good luck
Fair winds,
Robert
Sea Hunt a/k/a "The Tadpole Sailor"
CDSOA #1097
Robert
Sea Hunt a/k/a "The Tadpole Sailor"
CDSOA #1097
Mast Pumping
Little Bit,
We had the same issue with our 25D. We had a rigger inspect the rigging(his name is Greg Knightson of Quantum Sails and he says he weighs in at an 1/8th of a ton! He had no problem climbing the mast with an ATN chair) . He said the aft lower shrouds were too tight & the forward lowers were too loose. The forward lower shrouds should be tighter than the afts. He did a little tuning of the shrouds and it fixed the problem. Since our rigging was 23 years old & we want to do some serious cruising(for us anyway) we hired Greg to replace all of our standing rigging & lifelines, including turnbuckles & pelican hooks. He only charged a few hundred more than what we could have bought all the materials for ourselves(we would have had to pay someone to swage the fittings anyway) so it was a no brainer. He includes a 6 month sailing retune in his price. We also bought a 135 genoa from him for our Hood 707 roller furling. So far we love it. He put a foam luff in it and we can reef it down to 110 & still keep a decent shape. By the way, I sent you a pm about coming over to see our boat.
We had the same issue with our 25D. We had a rigger inspect the rigging(his name is Greg Knightson of Quantum Sails and he says he weighs in at an 1/8th of a ton! He had no problem climbing the mast with an ATN chair) . He said the aft lower shrouds were too tight & the forward lowers were too loose. The forward lower shrouds should be tighter than the afts. He did a little tuning of the shrouds and it fixed the problem. Since our rigging was 23 years old & we want to do some serious cruising(for us anyway) we hired Greg to replace all of our standing rigging & lifelines, including turnbuckles & pelican hooks. He only charged a few hundred more than what we could have bought all the materials for ourselves(we would have had to pay someone to swage the fittings anyway) so it was a no brainer. He includes a 6 month sailing retune in his price. We also bought a 135 genoa from him for our Hood 707 roller furling. So far we love it. He put a foam luff in it and we can reef it down to 110 & still keep a decent shape. By the way, I sent you a pm about coming over to see our boat.
Kurt & Carolyn Thomas