This weekend I stayed on my boat overnight for the first time. I was on the Hudson River at a place with many motor boats at anchor. I was the the only sailboat. Other boaters suggested I put out a stern anchor in addition to the bow anchor. During the night both anchors pulled loose and we drifted into deeper waters (70') The anchor lines were straight down. I almost hit another boat. I was fortunate to wake up in time.
What I think happened was that the tide changed, and my boat was then broadside to the current. With the full keel the anchors were no match for the tidal current. My wife doesn't really like sailing, and I think she comes along only because she likes me. I don't know if she likes me that much to go again after that. Any advise or experiances will be greatly appreciated.
Dennis
CD26d "Summerwind"
truettdc@frontiernet.net
One Anchor or Two?
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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John Ring
Re: One Anchor or Two?
Hi Dennis,This weekend I stayed on my boat overnight for the first time. I was on the Hudson River at a place with many motor boats at anchor. I was the the only sailboat. Other boaters suggested I put out a stern anchor in addition to the bow anchor. During the night both anchors pulled loose and we drifted into deeper waters (70') The anchor lines were straight down. I almost hit another boat. I was fortunate to wake up in time.
What I think happened was that the tide changed, and my boat was then broadside to the current. With the full keel the anchors were no match for the tidal current. My wife doesn't really like sailing, and I think she comes along only because she likes me. I don't know if she likes me that much to go again after that. Any advise or experiances will be greatly appreciated.
Dennis
CD26d "Summerwind"
That sounds pretty frightening! Have you taken all the usual precautions? It is with two anchors that the currents can generate great force on the anchors as the boat is no longer free to nose into the flow. This is likely what happened. If you do drop two, be sure you are in line with all anticipated currents. Do you have a good length of chain coming off the anchor? I use 25' of chain above my Bruce. Was your scope large enough? Ten to one is the usual rule - 100' of line for 10' of water. With a single anchor, this generates a huge radius of swing when winds and currents shift, and can cause trouble in a crowded anchorage. I like to use the Bruce (actually the "Bruce Lee" Chinese imitation) with a lot of chain, as I can shorten the scope up quite a bit with it. The manufacturer claims as little as 3 to 1, but I don't know if I would sleep well with it that short. Make sure the water you set in is fairly shallow, and be sure the bottom is good for holding. Sand or mud is best; avoid grass like plague. The few time I've dragged anchor was always over grass. I like to drop in about 10 to 15'. Finally, back down HARD to actually set the anchor. You should be unable to pull it free with the motor.
Don't let this experience keep you from cruising - learn from it. Cruising is too much fun to miss out on. There are two great books that cover anchoring (and nearly everything else) very well, The Annapolis Book of Seamanship (John Rousmaniere), and Chapman's Piloting. I prefer the Annapolis Book, as it is more sail oriented. My wife likes me much more now that my anchor sticks!
Good Luck,
John Ring
s/v Sovereign
Boston
Ringj@mediaone.net
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Stuart Harrison
Re: One Anchor or Two?
Dennis, check out the comments and replies under the web site below under "CD 30 Anchor Survey, posted on August 30, et al. by Larry Austin and company." Lots of interesting comments and replies, some even funny, regarding anchoring, scope, etc. Might provide you with some guidance.
Regards,
SH
Regards,
SH
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Ryan Turner
Re: One Anchor or Two?
Go ahead and use two anchors if need be but run them both off the bow. When the tides and current change the boat will just swing around and you'll still be bow to the current.
My wife doesn't really like sailing either. Wish it were different but what can ya do?
My wife doesn't really like sailing either. Wish it were different but what can ya do?
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Steve Alarcon
Re: One Anchor or Two?
Dennis,
You didn't mention how much scope you had out (ratio of depth of water to length of anchor rode), but I suspect it wasn't enough or you didn't get the anchor "set" correctly in the first place . If there is any current, you should not go with less than 4 to 1; 7 to 1 is the standard recommendation from most sources. Most importantly though, is that there is some technique to getting the hook to stick. United States Power Squadrons has boating courses (for the minimal cost of joining and paying for books) that covers lot's of basic seamanship issues. You might want to check them out. I think their websight is at http://www.usps.com
My wife and I just returned from out annual 2 week cruise, and we anchor out every night. Last night we had 25-30 knot winds, and a friend had his 30 footer rafted up to our boat. My 25# CQR held both boats just fine with a 5 to 1 scope, but I always make sure I get it set correctly!
I'd be willing to bet that with some practice you can get your boat very secure while at anchor. Good luck and keep enjoying that Cape Dory!
Steve Alarcon
CD30 Temerity
Seattle
alarcon3@prodigy.net
You didn't mention how much scope you had out (ratio of depth of water to length of anchor rode), but I suspect it wasn't enough or you didn't get the anchor "set" correctly in the first place . If there is any current, you should not go with less than 4 to 1; 7 to 1 is the standard recommendation from most sources. Most importantly though, is that there is some technique to getting the hook to stick. United States Power Squadrons has boating courses (for the minimal cost of joining and paying for books) that covers lot's of basic seamanship issues. You might want to check them out. I think their websight is at http://www.usps.com
My wife and I just returned from out annual 2 week cruise, and we anchor out every night. Last night we had 25-30 knot winds, and a friend had his 30 footer rafted up to our boat. My 25# CQR held both boats just fine with a 5 to 1 scope, but I always make sure I get it set correctly!
I'd be willing to bet that with some practice you can get your boat very secure while at anchor. Good luck and keep enjoying that Cape Dory!
Steve Alarcon
CD30 Temerity
Seattle
alarcon3@prodigy.net
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Catherine Monaghan
Re: One Anchor or Two?
Dennis,
You probably would have been better off anchoring using the "Bahaman Mooring" technique which uses two anchors off the bow. The anchor lines should form a 45-90 degree angle off the bow and use from 5:1 to 7:1 scope (10:1 in bad conditions). Remember that the scope should be based on the depth of the water at high tide plus the height of the bow off the water (if the water is 15 feet deep and your bow's 3 feet off the water, use 18 feet to calculate the scope). Always be cautious in tidal waters. Almost every anchor will drag when the tide turns but they usually reset themselves quickly.
Where on the Hudson were you? If you were near Manhattan, there's a mooring field at Pier 25 which is near the World Trade Center. It's convenient to the city and inexpensive as well -- $1 per foot. From there you've also got a great view of Jersey City, the Colgate clock, the old, now renovated train terminal, and the Statue of Liberty. Maybe next time, if you're leary about anchoring on the Hudson, you might try to get a mooring. Your wife may feel better about it as well. The mooring field is operated by the Manhattan Yacht Club which is actually located a little farther south at North Cove Marina.
catherine_monaghan@merck.com
CD32 Realization
Rahway, NJ
Raritan Bay
catherine_monaghan@merck.com
You probably would have been better off anchoring using the "Bahaman Mooring" technique which uses two anchors off the bow. The anchor lines should form a 45-90 degree angle off the bow and use from 5:1 to 7:1 scope (10:1 in bad conditions). Remember that the scope should be based on the depth of the water at high tide plus the height of the bow off the water (if the water is 15 feet deep and your bow's 3 feet off the water, use 18 feet to calculate the scope). Always be cautious in tidal waters. Almost every anchor will drag when the tide turns but they usually reset themselves quickly.
Where on the Hudson were you? If you were near Manhattan, there's a mooring field at Pier 25 which is near the World Trade Center. It's convenient to the city and inexpensive as well -- $1 per foot. From there you've also got a great view of Jersey City, the Colgate clock, the old, now renovated train terminal, and the Statue of Liberty. Maybe next time, if you're leary about anchoring on the Hudson, you might try to get a mooring. Your wife may feel better about it as well. The mooring field is operated by the Manhattan Yacht Club which is actually located a little farther south at North Cove Marina.
catherine_monaghan@merck.com
CD32 Realization
Rahway, NJ
Raritan Bay
This weekend I stayed on my boat overnight for the first time. I was on the Hudson River at a place with many motor boats at anchor. I was the the only sailboat. Other boaters suggested I put out a stern anchor in addition to the bow anchor. During the night both anchors pulled loose and we drifted into deeper waters (70') The anchor lines were straight down. I almost hit another boat. I was fortunate to wake up in time.
What I think happened was that the tide changed, and my boat was then broadside to the current. With the full keel the anchors were no match for the tidal current. My wife doesn't really like sailing, and I think she comes along only because she likes me. I don't know if she likes me that much to go again after that. Any advise or experiances will be greatly appreciated.
Dennis
CD26d "Summerwind"
catherine_monaghan@merck.com
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Dana, CD26 Hull #2
Re: One Anchor or Two?
Hi Dennis,
I am a proponent of a single good anchor. It only takes one of these type of "experiences" to get your attention. My experience is not on the river but at Block Island with T-Storms and veering 360 degree wind conditons. The bottom condition is critical to what type of anchor one should use. A fluke type (Danforth), in my opinion, can not be trusted for veering 360 degrees. It may not reset. Instead of a current change you could be hit with a storm where the wind influence is greater than the current. Thus I perfer to have a single anchor and swing with whatever has the most influence on the boat.
I use a 20# CQR with at least a boat length of 3/8 chain for leader and 1/2 braided rode. The 3/8" is above what normally you would expect. I would perfer a 25# CQR if I could get it on the bow roller. I can use up to 60' of 3/8 chain by hanking on a bit more. A plow may pull out of the bottom on a veer but has a very good chance (from experience) of reset. The chain is to keep the pull of the anchor horizontal to the bottom. It provides the line "sag" which pulls on the anchor horizontally for maximum anchor "bite" into the bottom. This in turn, can allow you to use a slightly less rode length in crowded anchorage than normal for the same holding strength. 7 to 10 anchor scope lengths of rode is standard....but remember that should also include the height to the bow PLUS the water depth. I will poinit out that an additional safety anchor is also on my boat. Block Island was known for late night arrivals where your anchor line was run over and cut by boats accidently.
I also like the idea that an additional anchor can be hanked on in tandom with the plow for a series connected anchor arrangement. That involves a length of chain, connected between the second anchor and the crown on the plow.
darenius@aol.com
I am a proponent of a single good anchor. It only takes one of these type of "experiences" to get your attention. My experience is not on the river but at Block Island with T-Storms and veering 360 degree wind conditons. The bottom condition is critical to what type of anchor one should use. A fluke type (Danforth), in my opinion, can not be trusted for veering 360 degrees. It may not reset. Instead of a current change you could be hit with a storm where the wind influence is greater than the current. Thus I perfer to have a single anchor and swing with whatever has the most influence on the boat.
I use a 20# CQR with at least a boat length of 3/8 chain for leader and 1/2 braided rode. The 3/8" is above what normally you would expect. I would perfer a 25# CQR if I could get it on the bow roller. I can use up to 60' of 3/8 chain by hanking on a bit more. A plow may pull out of the bottom on a veer but has a very good chance (from experience) of reset. The chain is to keep the pull of the anchor horizontal to the bottom. It provides the line "sag" which pulls on the anchor horizontally for maximum anchor "bite" into the bottom. This in turn, can allow you to use a slightly less rode length in crowded anchorage than normal for the same holding strength. 7 to 10 anchor scope lengths of rode is standard....but remember that should also include the height to the bow PLUS the water depth. I will poinit out that an additional safety anchor is also on my boat. Block Island was known for late night arrivals where your anchor line was run over and cut by boats accidently.
I also like the idea that an additional anchor can be hanked on in tandom with the plow for a series connected anchor arrangement. That involves a length of chain, connected between the second anchor and the crown on the plow.
darenius@aol.com
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Catherine Monaghan
Another thing to watch out for
Dennis,
Another problem with anchoring in a place like the Hudson River is the slope of the bottom. If you drop your anchor where the bottom is dropping off and the anchor does drag, it will be pulled to where there suddenly isn't anymore bottom and won't be able to catch on the downslope. It is much easier for the anchor to dig in when the bottom is relatively flat. So watch where you drop your hook.
catherine_monaghan@merck.com
CD32 Realization
Rahway, NJ
Raritan Bay
catherine_monaghan@merkc.com
Another problem with anchoring in a place like the Hudson River is the slope of the bottom. If you drop your anchor where the bottom is dropping off and the anchor does drag, it will be pulled to where there suddenly isn't anymore bottom and won't be able to catch on the downslope. It is much easier for the anchor to dig in when the bottom is relatively flat. So watch where you drop your hook.
catherine_monaghan@merck.com
CD32 Realization
Rahway, NJ
Raritan Bay
Dennis,
You probably would have been better off anchoring using the "Bahaman Mooring" technique which uses two anchors off the bow. The anchor lines should form a 45-90 degree angle off the bow and use from 5:1 to 7:1 scope (10:1 in bad conditions). Remember that the scope should be based on the depth of the water at high tide plus the height of the bow off the water (if the water is 15 feet deep and your bow's 3 feet off the water, use 18 feet to calculate the scope). Always be cautious in tidal waters. Almost every anchor will drag when the tide turns but they usually reset themselves quickly.
Where on the Hudson were you? If you were near Manhattan, there's a mooring field at Pier 25 which is near the World Trade Center. It's convenient to the city and inexpensive as well -- $1 per foot. From there you've also got a great view of Jersey City, the Colgate clock, the old, now renovated train terminal, and the Statue of Liberty. Maybe next time, if you're leary about anchoring on the Hudson, you might try to get a mooring. Your wife may feel better about it as well. The mooring field is operated by the Manhattan Yacht Club which is actually located a little farther south at North Cove Marina.
catherine_monaghan@merck.com
CD32 Realization
Rahway, NJ
Raritan Bay
This weekend I stayed on my boat overnight for the first time. I was on the Hudson River at a place with many motor boats at anchor. I was the the only sailboat. Other boaters suggested I put out a stern anchor in addition to the bow anchor. During the night both anchors pulled loose and we drifted into deeper waters (70') The anchor lines were straight down. I almost hit another boat. I was fortunate to wake up in time.
What I think happened was that the tide changed, and my boat was then broadside to the current. With the full keel the anchors were no match for the tidal current. My wife doesn't really like sailing, and I think she comes along only because she likes me. I don't know if she likes me that much to go again after that. Any advise or experiances will be greatly appreciated.
Dennis
CD26d "Summerwind"
catherine_monaghan@merkc.com
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Darin Bartram
Re: One Anchor or Two?
Everyone else has offered good advice about how to increase the chance that your anchor will hold. In case it doesn't, however, you might check to see whether your GPS or Loran has an anchor alarm on it. On my old Loran, I could program it to signal an alarm if I deviated a certain (adjustable) distance. It adds a certain comfort level. I don't know how well it works on a GPS system. Has anyone else had experience with this?
dbartram@hunton.com
This weekend I stayed on my boat overnight for the first time. I was on the Hudson River at a place with many motor boats at anchor. I was the the only sailboat. Other boaters suggested I put out a stern anchor in addition to the bow anchor. During the night both anchors pulled loose and we drifted into deeper waters (70') The anchor lines were straight down. I almost hit another boat. I was fortunate to wake up in time.
What I think happened was that the tide changed, and my boat was then broadside to the current. With the full keel the anchors were no match for the tidal current. My wife doesn't really like sailing, and I think she comes along only because she likes me. I don't know if she likes me that much to go again after that. Any advise or experiances will be greatly appreciated.
Dennis
CD26d "Summerwind"
dbartram@hunton.com
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Chris Jasonides
Re: One Anchor or Two?
This past weekend I anchored overnight with one Danforth anchor. I used the anchor watch alarm feature on my Loran C unit. I need to set a distance that takes into account swing to avoid "false" alarms.
cjaso@maine.rr.com
cjaso@maine.rr.com
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M. R. Bober
Strange Physics/Mechanics
The advice that others have provided is good.
However you may be interested in why a bow/stern combination is inferior (in most cases) to a "bow only" arrangement. Consider the lever as an analog to the line formed by the bow & stern anchors. Further this lever is supported an both extremes (analogously speaking) by a pair of fulcrums. Any force applied across the beam of your boat (or not parallel to your lubber line) would be similiar to that force applied to the middle of the lever. Now given that the force/distance on either side of the fulcrum must equal, those fulcrums at the extreme ends are subject to potentially mighty forces when relatively minor force is applied to the middle of the lever (consider a "double ended crowbar"). Forces that would largely mitigate, if the boat could swing with the wind.
Anchors are designed to resist a "pull" from a given direction (or a small range of directions). If the force becomes oblique to the designed "direction" the anchor is much less likely to hold.
The problem would probably be more pronounced on a powerboat (more freeboard to catch the wind). Hard cheese!
Anyway, about the only time that bow/stern combinations are useful--in my opinion--are in narrow anchorages where swinging would result in grounding, or where revrsing currents and not wind is the force to contend with. So set that hook and sleep soundly.
Mitchell Bober
RESPITE
CD330
thebobers@erols.com
However you may be interested in why a bow/stern combination is inferior (in most cases) to a "bow only" arrangement. Consider the lever as an analog to the line formed by the bow & stern anchors. Further this lever is supported an both extremes (analogously speaking) by a pair of fulcrums. Any force applied across the beam of your boat (or not parallel to your lubber line) would be similiar to that force applied to the middle of the lever. Now given that the force/distance on either side of the fulcrum must equal, those fulcrums at the extreme ends are subject to potentially mighty forces when relatively minor force is applied to the middle of the lever (consider a "double ended crowbar"). Forces that would largely mitigate, if the boat could swing with the wind.
Anchors are designed to resist a "pull" from a given direction (or a small range of directions). If the force becomes oblique to the designed "direction" the anchor is much less likely to hold.
The problem would probably be more pronounced on a powerboat (more freeboard to catch the wind). Hard cheese!
Anyway, about the only time that bow/stern combinations are useful--in my opinion--are in narrow anchorages where swinging would result in grounding, or where revrsing currents and not wind is the force to contend with. So set that hook and sleep soundly.
Mitchell Bober
RESPITE
CD330
thebobers@erols.com
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Neil Gordon
Re: One Anchor or Two?
>>Other boaters suggested I put out a stern anchor in addition to the bow anchor.<<
Having read the comments so far, I have this to add:
I agree that if the boat is held beam to a wind or current, the forces increase substantially. Those forces are all transferred to the anchors. Without doing the math, consider the force when the wind/current is bow to the wind vs. beam to the wind. It has to be well more than twice as much, so you're more likely to drag two anchors vs. one.
More importantly, with the wind astern, you will be lying to only the stern anchor. The universal advice is never to anchor from the stern. The boat's not designed for it and you risk getting swamped.
If you want to set two anchors, both should be set from the bow.
I've only seen bow and stern sets in mooring situations where a harbor was very well protected.
Regards, Neil
s/v LIQUIDITY
Cape Dory 28 #167
neil@nrgordon.com
Having read the comments so far, I have this to add:
I agree that if the boat is held beam to a wind or current, the forces increase substantially. Those forces are all transferred to the anchors. Without doing the math, consider the force when the wind/current is bow to the wind vs. beam to the wind. It has to be well more than twice as much, so you're more likely to drag two anchors vs. one.
More importantly, with the wind astern, you will be lying to only the stern anchor. The universal advice is never to anchor from the stern. The boat's not designed for it and you risk getting swamped.
If you want to set two anchors, both should be set from the bow.
I've only seen bow and stern sets in mooring situations where a harbor was very well protected.
Regards, Neil
s/v LIQUIDITY
Cape Dory 28 #167
neil@nrgordon.com