Does *anyone* back their Cape Dory into their slip? Or does the famously bad steering properties of our boats in reverse simply mitigate against this?
On my 36, I notice that the direction when backing is NOT random. Instead, the rule seems to be: the bow will fall off regardless of what you do with the rudder. This makes backing not very useful, unless you want to back dead upwind, but at least it puts a bit of predictability on how things will go.
Reverse, randomness, backing into slip, etc.
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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Don Carr
Re: Reverse, randomness, backing into slip, etc.
On my CD25 (o/b) I have backed into the slip once. I won't be doing it again - just more trouble than it is worth. I can't speak for the inboard models but I never rely on reverse to back only to stop.Does *anyone* back their Cape Dory into their slip? Or does the famously bad steering properties of our boats in reverse simply mitigate against this?
On my 36, I notice that the direction when backing is NOT random. Instead, the rule seems to be: the bow will fall off regardless of what you do with the rudder. This makes backing not very useful, unless you want to back dead upwind, but at least it puts a bit of predictability on how things will go.
My prop is aft of the rudder which is not a very good configuration for backing. I believe it is a basic characteristic of a deep full keel single screw boat - they don't back up.
The one time I did back into the slip, I made extensive use of an after spring on the piling and just 'sprung' her into submission. I heartily recommend spring lines in conjunction with reverse thrust as opposed to relying upon steerage entering a slip.
carrd@erols.com
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Ryan Turner
Re: Reverse, randomness, backing into slip, etc.
Hi Russell,
I back my CD33 into her slip every time. I have to do this because my slip can be a little exposed to weather from the southwest. If big weather comes from that direction while I'm not around I'd rather have her bow into any seas that might come her way. I considered it a real pain at first but now it's not so bad. I've gotten pretty good at it. At least I don't generally run into anything on the way into the slip.
You're right about the bow falling off no matter what you do unless a strong wind is dead astern. What I do is position the boat as if I could back straight into the slip then give a lot of reverse throttle to get her moving backward. I then take her out of reverse so the boat is just gliding backward. I try to steer with the rudder but it often doesn't do much good. If I'm lucky I can glide her straight into the slip but it really doesn't matter much if the bow falls off one way or the other. If the bow falls off I just straighten out her trajectory by thrusting the stern using a little forward throttle and port or starboard rudder depending on what is required to straighten her out. Once she is straight I give a strong reverse throttle to get her backing again. Sometimes I get it right the first time. Other times I have to straighten her out 3 or 4 times but I always get her into the slip without any crunches. It's not the easiest thing to do but you can get good at it. Practice is the key.
Good luck with your 36!
Ryan Turner
s/v Zenobia
CD33 hull no. 100
Oriental, NC
I back my CD33 into her slip every time. I have to do this because my slip can be a little exposed to weather from the southwest. If big weather comes from that direction while I'm not around I'd rather have her bow into any seas that might come her way. I considered it a real pain at first but now it's not so bad. I've gotten pretty good at it. At least I don't generally run into anything on the way into the slip.
You're right about the bow falling off no matter what you do unless a strong wind is dead astern. What I do is position the boat as if I could back straight into the slip then give a lot of reverse throttle to get her moving backward. I then take her out of reverse so the boat is just gliding backward. I try to steer with the rudder but it often doesn't do much good. If I'm lucky I can glide her straight into the slip but it really doesn't matter much if the bow falls off one way or the other. If the bow falls off I just straighten out her trajectory by thrusting the stern using a little forward throttle and port or starboard rudder depending on what is required to straighten her out. Once she is straight I give a strong reverse throttle to get her backing again. Sometimes I get it right the first time. Other times I have to straighten her out 3 or 4 times but I always get her into the slip without any crunches. It's not the easiest thing to do but you can get good at it. Practice is the key.
Good luck with your 36!
Ryan Turner
s/v Zenobia
CD33 hull no. 100
Oriental, NC
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Neil Gordon
Re: Reverse, randomness, backing into slip, etc.
>>Does *anyone* back their Cape Dory into their slip?<<
Would make for an easy getaway, for sure. But I don't think I could do it unless the wind was exactly right. There's an Island Packet at the marina that's backed in... arrival is fairly ugly, in fact.
>>On my 36, I notice that the direction when backing is NOT random.<<
Of course not! The boat just reacts to the forces acting on it... the greatest being the wind against the hull and rig... the least being the effect of the rudder. <g>
>>This makes backing not very useful, unless you want to back dead upwind, ...<<
But once you are going, you can steer, in fact! I get some speed in reverse, get a turn started, shift to ahead and spin right around.
Regards, Neil
s/v LIQUIDITY
Cape Dory 28 #167
neil@nrgordon.com
Would make for an easy getaway, for sure. But I don't think I could do it unless the wind was exactly right. There's an Island Packet at the marina that's backed in... arrival is fairly ugly, in fact.
>>On my 36, I notice that the direction when backing is NOT random.<<
Of course not! The boat just reacts to the forces acting on it... the greatest being the wind against the hull and rig... the least being the effect of the rudder. <g>
>>This makes backing not very useful, unless you want to back dead upwind, ...<<
But once you are going, you can steer, in fact! I get some speed in reverse, get a turn started, shift to ahead and spin right around.
Regards, Neil
s/v LIQUIDITY
Cape Dory 28 #167
neil@nrgordon.com
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Catherine Monaghan
Re: Reverse, randomness, backing into slip, etc.
Russell,
Before moving our CD32 to a floating dock we used to have a slip at a fixed dock and had to park the boat between pilings.
We always backed our CD32 into that slip between the 4 pilings. We setup walk lines on either side of the boat. Before backing in, I'd pull up along side the slip, moving very slowly, and then turn away from the slip swinging the stern between the pilings. I'd put the engine in reverse and as soon as she started to make sternway, I'd put her in neutral so that I could steer. If she slowed down to much I'd give her a little more reverse then back to neutral. My husband would then grab a spring line off of one of the pilings (depending on which way the wind was blowing). While he was cleating the spring line, I would guide the boat back using both the steering wheel and another boat hook. I would simply reach over the side with a boathook and grab the appropriate walk line and give a tug, just enough to get her moving in the direction I wanted (if you tug too much the boat will glide all the way across the slip and probably bump the boat on the other side -- remember the momentum thing) and keep the boat centered in the slip. I would grab the stern lines with the boat hook and cleat them while my husband finished with the rest of the lines.
We quite often did this with an audience so it was important to do it right. Believe it or not, we were one of only two sailboats that backed into their slips. (The other boat was an old Pearson 35 -- another Alberg design with a full keel.) I think after they watched us a few times many of the other sailboaters decided to give it a try because most of the sailboats on the fixed dock now back in.
So it can be done but I don't know if I'd want to try it in a transient slip without walklines.
catherine_monaghan@merck.com
CD32 Realization
Rahway, NJ
Raritan Bay
catherine_monaghan@merck.com
Before moving our CD32 to a floating dock we used to have a slip at a fixed dock and had to park the boat between pilings.
We always backed our CD32 into that slip between the 4 pilings. We setup walk lines on either side of the boat. Before backing in, I'd pull up along side the slip, moving very slowly, and then turn away from the slip swinging the stern between the pilings. I'd put the engine in reverse and as soon as she started to make sternway, I'd put her in neutral so that I could steer. If she slowed down to much I'd give her a little more reverse then back to neutral. My husband would then grab a spring line off of one of the pilings (depending on which way the wind was blowing). While he was cleating the spring line, I would guide the boat back using both the steering wheel and another boat hook. I would simply reach over the side with a boathook and grab the appropriate walk line and give a tug, just enough to get her moving in the direction I wanted (if you tug too much the boat will glide all the way across the slip and probably bump the boat on the other side -- remember the momentum thing) and keep the boat centered in the slip. I would grab the stern lines with the boat hook and cleat them while my husband finished with the rest of the lines.
We quite often did this with an audience so it was important to do it right. Believe it or not, we were one of only two sailboats that backed into their slips. (The other boat was an old Pearson 35 -- another Alberg design with a full keel.) I think after they watched us a few times many of the other sailboaters decided to give it a try because most of the sailboats on the fixed dock now back in.
So it can be done but I don't know if I'd want to try it in a transient slip without walklines.
catherine_monaghan@merck.com
CD32 Realization
Rahway, NJ
Raritan Bay
Does *anyone* back their Cape Dory into their slip? Or does the famously bad steering properties of our boats in reverse simply mitigate against this?
On my 36, I notice that the direction when backing is NOT random. Instead, the rule seems to be: the bow will fall off regardless of what you do with the rudder. This makes backing not very useful, unless you want to back dead upwind, but at least it puts a bit of predictability on how things will go.
catherine_monaghan@merck.com
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Bill Cochrane
Re: Reverse, randomness, backing into slip, etc.
I back my CD36 into the slip, because the finger pier is very short and there's a piling just where the bow platform needs to hang over the pier if the boat is close enough in to allow boarding and unboarding gracefully (defined as NOT using the bow platform as a springboard).
Ryan covers the technique pretty well...get her going in reverse to obtain steering way, then shift to neutral. The fairway in front of my slip is pretty wide, which lets me take a bit of a run at it. We also have LONG bow lines so that crew can snag the one on the windward piling and bring it forward of the mast to keep the bow from falling off. My slip is a narrow target, only a foot or so wider than my beam, but once I get the stern between the outer pilings, we're in safely. Unless the crew drops the long bow line as the stern is passiing the pilings and the screw catches it....but that's another story.
You need to be moving at what you will think is too fast in order to get into the slip and still maintain steering. We also have spring lines on the outer piling pre-tied at the right length so dropping one over the midships cleat assures that the boat will not strike the pier.
Practice in calm water/wind and learn what a quick burst of throttle in forward and reverse does with the rudder hard to port or starboard. You can use forward gear, full right or left rudder, and a quick burst to move the bow back to center without losing too much way in reverse. (the stern moves in the opposite direction, but not as much.) You can also pull the stern to port (assuming right handed prop) by goosing it in reverse...here the rudder position doesn't matter.
The other "trick" (experience, really) is to gauge the wind and/or current and estimate how much you're going to be affected, then compensate when lining up...if your slip faces west, and the wind is south, and you're approaching from the south, turn a bit more than parallel to your slip and a bit early so that as the bow comes around and you're backing, it will set you straight with the slip.
Finally, if you have room, which means that the boats on either side of you don't extend past the outer pilings (NOT the case for me, unfortunately) learn to warp in. It takes a lot less practice to get right.
Not all my landings are pretty, but we haven't broken anything or anyone yet. In accord with Murphy your worst landings will be witnessed by the entire membership of your club, while your perfect ones will be when the pier is deserted.
cochrane@clark.net
Ryan covers the technique pretty well...get her going in reverse to obtain steering way, then shift to neutral. The fairway in front of my slip is pretty wide, which lets me take a bit of a run at it. We also have LONG bow lines so that crew can snag the one on the windward piling and bring it forward of the mast to keep the bow from falling off. My slip is a narrow target, only a foot or so wider than my beam, but once I get the stern between the outer pilings, we're in safely. Unless the crew drops the long bow line as the stern is passiing the pilings and the screw catches it....but that's another story.
You need to be moving at what you will think is too fast in order to get into the slip and still maintain steering. We also have spring lines on the outer piling pre-tied at the right length so dropping one over the midships cleat assures that the boat will not strike the pier.
Practice in calm water/wind and learn what a quick burst of throttle in forward and reverse does with the rudder hard to port or starboard. You can use forward gear, full right or left rudder, and a quick burst to move the bow back to center without losing too much way in reverse. (the stern moves in the opposite direction, but not as much.) You can also pull the stern to port (assuming right handed prop) by goosing it in reverse...here the rudder position doesn't matter.
The other "trick" (experience, really) is to gauge the wind and/or current and estimate how much you're going to be affected, then compensate when lining up...if your slip faces west, and the wind is south, and you're approaching from the south, turn a bit more than parallel to your slip and a bit early so that as the bow comes around and you're backing, it will set you straight with the slip.
Finally, if you have room, which means that the boats on either side of you don't extend past the outer pilings (NOT the case for me, unfortunately) learn to warp in. It takes a lot less practice to get right.
Not all my landings are pretty, but we haven't broken anything or anyone yet. In accord with Murphy your worst landings will be witnessed by the entire membership of your club, while your perfect ones will be when the pier is deserted.
Does *anyone* back their Cape Dory into their slip? Or does the famously bad steering properties of our boats in reverse simply mitigate against this?
On my 36, I notice that the direction when backing is NOT random. Instead, the rule seems to be: the bow will fall off regardless of what you do with the rudder. This makes backing not very useful, unless you want to back dead upwind, but at least it puts a bit of predictability on how things will go.
cochrane@clark.net
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Russell
Midship cleats !?
Yeah, I'd like two of those! Where did you put them? Did you use some sort of mounting pad to get them above the toe rail? I've been thinking about how to add midship cleats, and would welcome knowing how other CD owners have done this.
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Neil Gordon
Re: Midship cleats !?
>>I've been thinking about how to add midship cleats, ...<<
You can get cleats that attach to the genoa track.
Regards, Neil
s/v LIQUIDITY
Cape Dory 28 #167
neil@nrgordon.com
You can get cleats that attach to the genoa track.
Regards, Neil
s/v LIQUIDITY
Cape Dory 28 #167
neil@nrgordon.com
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Bill Cochrane
Re: Midship cleats !?
They came with the boat when I bought it (not new); it's a 1985, hull 114. Don't know if they are original equipment or added by the original owner; I'd guess the former.
Spartan has the cleats in their catalog; they are inset into the toe rail and have raised bronze sections fore and aft that are the same height as the toe rail (as is the cleat itself) and with the cleat form chocks. Hard to describe but if you have a Spartan catalog they're items C229 or C212 (different sizes). Available in polished or burnished bronze.
cochrane@clark.net
Spartan has the cleats in their catalog; they are inset into the toe rail and have raised bronze sections fore and aft that are the same height as the toe rail (as is the cleat itself) and with the cleat form chocks. Hard to describe but if you have a Spartan catalog they're items C229 or C212 (different sizes). Available in polished or burnished bronze.
Yeah, I'd like two of those! Where did you put them? Did you use some sort of mounting pad to get them above the toe rail? I've been thinking about how to add midship cleats, and would welcome knowing how other CD owners have done this.
cochrane@clark.net
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Dana
Re: Midship cleats !?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++Yeah, I'd like two of those! Where did you put them? Did you use some sort of mounting pad to get them above the toe rail? I've been thinking about how to add midship cleats, and would welcome knowing how other CD owners have done this.
I added midship cleats on my CD26. You need to know the dimensions of your toe rail and then call Spartan. One must carefully locate the position for installing the cleats. A section of the toe rail is cut out....the ends of the cut out is actually "stepped" into the remaining wood ends. The trick is to miss any deck to hull thru bolts or toe rail bolts because you want to allow room on the bottom side for backing plates......so you need some brown chalk, thru bolts, drill, backing plates, and a coping saw...and some time....
darenius@aol.com
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Jerry Axler
Re: Reverse, randomness, backing into slip, etc.
I back my 36 almost all the time because I have a rather short finger pier that makes loading difficult when the bow is in first. The only times I come in bow first is in an extremely strong croosswind or when I singlehandle her in less than ideal circumstances. Set up walk-in lines and then all you have to do is get the stern in far enough to reach them while your crew handles the bow line to keep the bow from falling off. It takes some practise, but take into account the wind and current effects and use them to your advantage while backing.Does *anyone* back their Cape Dory into their slip? Or does the famously bad steering properties of our boats in reverse simply mitigate against this?
On my 36, I notice that the direction when backing is NOT random. Instead, the rule seems to be: the bow will fall off regardless of what you do with the rudder. This makes backing not very useful, unless you want to back dead upwind, but at least it puts a bit of predictability on how things will go.
cutter36@erols.com
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M. R. Bober
Re: Reverse, randomness, backing into slip, etc.
Back in the olden days when I sailed a CD27 (three years ago), I would usually back in to any slip. I had lots of room at my dock to get the hang of things ( and to abort and try a second/third/fourth approach). You really don't steer in reverse. Rather you obtain your heading in forward and then go astern. If/when you lose your heading, it's back to forward to regain the heading and then back to reverse.
I prefer the privacy of not having the cockpit facing pedestrian traffic so even when a transient I would back-in. Even single handing I generally would back-in.
Now that I have a CD330, I go in pointy end first. I haven't quite mastered a technique and a quick foot to the dock doesn't accomplish much.
Shaft
thebobers@erols.com
I prefer the privacy of not having the cockpit facing pedestrian traffic so even when a transient I would back-in. Even single handing I generally would back-in.
Now that I have a CD330, I go in pointy end first. I haven't quite mastered a technique and a quick foot to the dock doesn't accomplish much.
Shaft
thebobers@erols.com
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Tom
Re: Reverse, randomness, backing into slip, etc.
You've had a lot of good advice in the previous postings. Here's a minor variation on Catherine's method. You know the boat will back to the left when you go in reverse, so I use that to back in. Come in dead slow near your slip and then turn out as if you were turning away. Try to bring the boat to a dead stop about a boat length from the slip but be sitting at about a 45 degree angle to the slip and slightly ahead of it. Go into reverse and the prop will walk the stern to the left and backward and back you right into the slip or close enough that you can grab something with the boathook. It takes a little practice until you figure out how much the boat will come around as you back and how far away you need to be and the angle you need, but once you get a picture of the spot in your mind it's pretty easy to replicate it and as the others have said, you can adjust by giving the engine a burst in reverse, going into neutral, or forward with a quick burst to adjust your angle as you back down.Does *anyone* back their Cape Dory into their slip? Or does the famously bad steering properties of our boats in reverse simply mitigate against this?
On my 36, I notice that the direction when backing is NOT random. Instead, the rule seems to be: the bow will fall off regardless of what you do with the rudder. This makes backing not very useful, unless you want to back dead upwind, but at least it puts a bit of predictability on how things will go.
TacCambria@thegrid.net
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D. Stump, Hanalei
Re: 1st. rule, make sure NO one is looking.......
Russell,
I find when backing Hanalei, that I can do it perfectly when NO one is watching! If there is a person, dog, cat, seagull or whatever on the dock watching, Hanalei will have her way and never go where I want her to! Maybe an alternative would be to shout the command "Attention" as you approach the slip, when everyone is standing tall then command "About Face", and when everyone is looking the other way, back her in!!! There is nothing, absolutely nothing, quite so much fun as simply messing, simply messing about in boats.....(Wind in the Willows).....
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30
I find when backing Hanalei, that I can do it perfectly when NO one is watching! If there is a person, dog, cat, seagull or whatever on the dock watching, Hanalei will have her way and never go where I want her to! Maybe an alternative would be to shout the command "Attention" as you approach the slip, when everyone is standing tall then command "About Face", and when everyone is looking the other way, back her in!!! There is nothing, absolutely nothing, quite so much fun as simply messing, simply messing about in boats.....(Wind in the Willows).....
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30
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Tim
Re: Reverse, randomness, backing into slip, etc.
I chartered an Island Packet in FL a few years ago before I acquired my CD 36 and was amazed by the way they docked their boats stern to using mass quantities of throttle in short bursts. I'm still a little too timid when doing the same (speed is good for steering, but bad for gelcoat), but I notice that when I do race the Perkins 50hp for correction the results are usually very good. I haven't tried shifitng into neutral afterwards, but I will after reading these postings. I sail in S. Cal and the wind is generally predictable - the tide causes a wonderful feeling like you're always on the hook, but is awful for backing out.
smale@idyllwild.com
smale@idyllwild.com