Thoughts on getting a bigger Cape Dory

[Domenic]

My CP 27 Sails like a Dream and I love my boay very much. But , I just need more room . I just do not see myself sailing any boat than a Cape Dory. I see a lot of CP 36 for sale on Yachtworld. One in particular, is a 1980 CP 36 for sale in New London NH. I am thinking of driveing up to NH to see her. And her price is realistic for me. And another CP37 in RI. What should I be looking for when I see them, to tell if her past owner kept her in good shape . Thanks

[Bill Goldsmith]

The three rules on real estate value are location, location and location. The three rules on boat value are condition, condition and condition. Look at everything yourself before deciding whether to make an offer and spend money on a surveyor. Decide if you want a boat that has been barely upgraded, i.e. all original, or one that has been refitted and updated. A boat that has few updates, but is in good shape overall can be a great bargain, and you can customize it according to your own needs and desires. Take a close look at any refits that look like they were amateur jobs. The following book is a great place to start to help make a checklist.

http://www.amazon.com/Inspecting-Aging- ... 0070133948

There is a lot to look at when evaluating a boat: deck, hull, sails, standing rigging, running rigging, engine hours and condition, engine plumbing and electric, charging system, general wiring, plumbing, rudder, steering gear, woodwork interior, wood exterior, electronics, instruments, etc. etc.

No boat is going to be perfect, but you'll have to find the right mix of condition and equipment that already fit your current needs and your appetite for making modifications and upgrades to fit your needs.

[mahalocd36]

If you have a bunch within easy driving distance, I would look at them all. When we bought Mahalo there were 2 in New England for sail and we looked at both. Not sure what exactly to tell you what to look for, I know I've been on some boats when it's obvious they didn't take care of it (like worn through to the core traveller lines) (this was on a pearson). And you've been on boats I'm sure where it's obvious the owner took excellent care...but a lot of the maintence is things you don't see (changing the oil, servicing seacocks, etc).

It's kind of the same as buying a house - if you see something obvious that they didn't take care of, and they are trying to sell it, then you wonder what else they didn't do that you can't see.
We ran away from those boats.

You'll probably have a lot to decide on - right now CD36s have a wide range in price and varying equipment.

Have fun!!

[Paul D.]

My two cents worth is to first check these things.

1) Walk around the hull from a little distance and look at the tosides and bottom if on the hard. Gather a big picture feel for her. Are lines tidy? Are there gashes or discolourations on the hull and deck? Look for patterns of lack of maintainence. Is the overall look of the boat well-kept? Try to look beyond the cleaning. You may find a bargain of a well-kept boat but only with the teak finish let go of.
2) What kind of sails, motor and electronics are aboard? Many of these boats have had upgrades which can be good or bad depending on who installed them. I like an original boat with the original stuff because it is much easier to upgrade. Check the bilge for water or oil or other mystery fluids. A bit of water is fine but look closer if you find other liquids down there.
3) Does it have what you want? We found a boat that had almost everything we wanted but not all. So we made sure we could get a boat with a bit of left over cash to do our upgrades - woodstove (It's cold up here man!) dodger, roller furler replacement etc. right away.
4) Some advice I got that we found worthy was to buy the smallest boat you feel comfortable in.

For us, the CD33 was it. I never thought I would afford/get one but after just winterizing and shrinkwrapping her this past weekend, I fall in love with her with each project.

Best of luck in your hunt.

Paul

[barfwinkle]

Do an excel spread sheet and assign points say 1 to 5 for each category or item you feel is important. Dodger, roller furling, dinghy, radar, ssb, sail inventory, sail condition, etc.

Let the numbers help you through the process. Just MTCW.

Good luck.

[Sea Hunt]

Paul D.

I would be interested in your thoughts of "buy the smallest boat you feel comfortable in."

As you may know from my posts, I am a "tadpole" "newbie" sailor with limited experience. I have been looking for a CD for quite some time (and getting increasingly jealous of posts announcing recent CD purchases ). I have been looking primarily at CD 22s or CD Ty Weekender. My experienced sailing friends all have told me that I should get a larger sailboat (at least a CD 25 or CD 25D or a CD 27) and that I will quickly learn to handle it single handed. They tell me I will quickly outgrow a CD Ty Weekender or a CD 22. Their reasoning seems to be buy the biggest boat you feel comfortable in (and that you an afford).

My goals and aspirations (and funds) are limited. Initially, I want to do day sailing in Biscayne Bay, Florida and gradually work up to doing overnights near some of the keys in Biscayne Bay. Depending upon my comfort level, I would eventually like to do week long sails down to the Key West/Marquesas area.

I know a CD Ty Weekender may be too small for the week long trips, but I thought I would start out with a small sailboat and then work up to a CD 25D or a CD 27.

I have also heard the adage "the bigger the boat, the less you sail her". I do not want to be one of those who buys a sailboat only to have her floating on a mooring 24/7/365.

What's your reasoning behind "go smaller". Intuitively, I agree with the reasoning and would like to persuade my sailing friends to my line of thinking.

Thanks,

[Mark Yashinsky]

Also, what are your future plans? Its a big jump up to a 36. Your first reply (Goldsmith) went from a 27 up to a 32 because they needed more room. Now, the first of his "space takers" is about to go off to college. You might want to talk to him about the jump up in size and what was involved.
Also, think about what is involved in selling your current boat and about where you keep her. Just my two cents.

BTW, I am not being negative about this, just posting some things to think about. And I got a very nice 27 because of Goldsmith's "need for room".

[Joe CD MS 300]

I have never singlehanded so I'm not commenting on that issue. But if you have a crew of one or two handling a 36' er vs a 27'er or 30' er is not much different. You have the same number of sails, the same number of sheets, one engine, one set of controls. Once you get use to the look and feel of the size of a larger boat it makes little difference. In general the larger boat will have a more comfortable motion. Docking is one area where you might notice some difference. The larger the boat, the greater the momentum to take into account but it is not hard to get use to.

I started out on a 27' Watkins at the boat club that I joined when I started sailing and only used it once. The second trip was on a 30' CD and before the end of the first season was taking out 36' CD's. I chartered a 44' catamaran a couple years back out of Annapolis and even that was not much different. It helps if you have a strong crew when the main gets large but even then you still have winches.

[Warren Kaplan]

Everyone made excellent points. But you must remember the costs over and above the purchase price.

If you have to winter the boat in a yard, most yards charge by some formula for "size" (either LOA or, as in my yard, LOA X beam). The bigger the boat the bigger the winter bill, each and every year . Need a winter cover or shrinkwrap? Its more on a large boat.

You'll need more bottom paint on a larger boat. Need new sails....you'll be paying for more square footage in sail area. A bigger slip or a heavier mooring usually costs more every year. There's more teak to do on a larger boat...etc, etc.

Do you have the time to do the work yourself? Larger boats sometimes require more time. If you have to hire the yard crew to do things, it may be more on a bigger boat.

Each one of these things may not seem too bad by itself, but as ALL boat owners know, things just never end and start to pile up year after year.

So you have to stand up, reach into your pocket, and
realistically see how "deep" it is. There is nothing worse than buying a new boat only to find out that you are TRULY boat poor and can't do even the necessary "fixes" for a long time...if ever!

[Zeida]

fwiw: IT IS A huge JUMP FROm a 27 to a 36! While you can easily handle your current 27 by yourself, a different animal altogether is the 36! YOU NEED two people to take her out everytime. Especially Anchoring and retrieving it. To haul out, it cost more. To work on her, costs more.

The work and maintenance on the boat is 100% more. The marina slip will be also a big jump in $. The parts and equipment are lots $$$ more. YES, you will have more room. It comes with a lot MORE committment to sailing, because it does not make sense to have such a big boat sitting on the slip for lack of a crew or time to go out. Much easier with a smaller 27.

Having said that, I went from a CD-25 with a beautiful simple outboard and a tiller to a CD-33 with a monster diesel engine. I had NO IDEA what I was getting into. At that time, I thought, "I need more room" and never ocurred to me that the bigger CD would be so different from my existing one. HAH! If you are mechanically inclined, you already have an advantage! If you like working on boats, being a plumber, an electrician, a carpenter, a painter, and maybe a bit of a sailor at the end of the day, you got an advantage. Since you will have much more room, you will start going crazy with the electronics for the nav station, and the $$$ will surprise you. If you are handy reading manuals and doing the installations yourself, you've got an advantage.

For the survey, make sure you get into the cockpit locker and go right through to the engine compartment and see if you fit in there, because that's where you will have to do the engine maintenance. With a flashlight, look everywhere down there, behind the engine, at the steering quadrant, the fuel tank, where the batteries are installed and if the installation is clean, if it makes sense. Look for corrosion everywhere and leaks from the seacocks, are they frozen, can you move them? The seacock pads, are they in good shape? Are there good backing plates and can you see them, for the shrouds and stays? Does the mast have internal or external halyards? If there is an anchor windlass, is it working properly? Corrosion? Has the existing tranny been replaced? Is it solidly connected to the engine? Is the muffler and all the hoses in good shape? New hoses? Old leaky hoses?

And then, you end up loving the darned huge thing. Good luck.

[Mike]

FWIW let me add a few thoughts:

Is a larger boat more expensive? Absolutely, in every way you can imagine. The important question is what kind of sailing do you do. If you are a singlehander who daysails a lot, overnights occasionally and does an annual one week coastal cruise don't let anyone talk you into selling that CD-27. It's the best sailing Cape Dory ever made. All a larger boat will do is make sure you daysail less.

However, if the size of the family or your cruising plans won't fit into the CD-27 and you can afford it (very important) then you must move up. How big is your call, see above.

IMHO a competent sailor can singlehand a 45' boat. The secret is thinking and planning ahead. By planning ahead I don't mean just your actions on the water but also in equipping the boat. For example what competent singlehander puts a 10' bow line on a 40' boat? Think about it. How are you going to get off the boat with that bow line in hand and tie off the boat? Your attitude has to be that there will not be any help available when you need it. If crew is available all the better.

Finally, you can't put 10lbs of stuff into a 5lb boat.

Now I will put my soap box away,

Mike Thorpe
CD-27, CD-36, Saga 43 and now Outbound 44

[Joe CD MS 300]

Domenic,

One other item that might make the 36 easier to handle is that it is a cutter. When our kids were little and my wife was dealing with them, I'd often sail only with the main and the yankee jib. No help needed tacking. Just turn the wheel. I could handle most of the sail trim alone. Your 27 isn't a cutter, correct? How big is you genny? The 36 is really a joy to sail if I remember correctly. If the price is right I don't think you will be unhappy with a 36. A great boat for a family or two couples.

Joe

[Paul D.]

Robert,

There's some good advice going on here but alot to consider. I'll deal with why I said go with the smallest boat that is comfortable. I think I got that from Don Casey or another of the plethora of sailing old boat writers.

Smaller is just usually simpler. My brother has a CD36 and the complexity of his boat compared to mine is significant. Of course, he is reading this so I best be careful! It is cool to go back and forth among our boats when we fit them out or winterize them together. In fact, it is kind of a ritual now that we both look forward to. His boat is more comfortable below but I feel comfortable on our size boat, enough so that it works. My wife Carmela feels the same and that was a major reason with chose the boat we did.

When we were looking for a bigger boat (we had a Typhoon and loved it but wanted to do much bigger voyages) we were looking at CD28's, 30's and Luders 33's, (Very tight below) and one of my favorite production boats of all time, the old Tartan 34. I knew the various sailing charateristics of each from years of chartering and our bottom line financial ability. I loved the Luders and the CD 30. The Tartan was a bit chincy but sails OH SO WELL. We looked at an old Allied Princess 36 which had loads of room but Carmela was uncertain about being able to handle its bulk. I wouldn't have liked sailing her either! So 36 feet was too big. CD 36 was too much money by far.

But when we were aboard the smaller boats, my wife, and to some extent, myself, just couldn't see staying on them for an extended period of time. After looking at a '73 Tartan 34, we swung up a few miles to look at a CD 33 just for the hell of it. Well, we both were really felt it was the one. The quarter berth helped - and I use the nav table every time I am aboard with gladness in my heart.

Anyway, I knew I could single hand the 33 with the mainsheet on the bridgedeck and a masthead sloop rig and I knew it was just a really big Typhoon as far as sail handling. And I can go for a daysail with the same amount of prep time (about 10 minutes) as I could on my Ty. Yes, not as often because of location. So we went with the 33 as it was the smallest boat we felt comfortable with. I also simply LOVE to work on her so I do spend more time putzing around on her than sailing but it is my therapy and I enjoy having her ready for the twice yearly voyages across Lake Superior (the May delivery is quite boisterous; I have a little 45 knot video that I plan to get on YouTube later this fall!)

That's my missive. If you are planning to jump up in boat size it pays to go on a bunch of different boats and sail them, be real about what you feel you want and what you absolutely need. I may not have chosen the 33 if I was solo - probably a CD28 as it is just so sexy. But I want to keep this boat for a long time if I can and the gods allow it. And I don't really want anything bigger...at all! (Though my brother's V berth IS really nice!)

All the best and enjoy,

Paul

[Bill Michne]

Gotta' say there have been times when I wish I had kept my CD31, like when the brightwork needs redoing, the sails needed replacing, etc. No doubt about it, bigger costs more. But we wouldn't part with Mintaka short of a major catastrophe or health issue. I have not single handed her because Beth won't stand for being left at the dock! But the PO single handed all the time.

The only comfort issue that truly matters is how much $$ you're comfortable spending on the initial cost and maintenance. Get that right and size won't matter much, at least for coastal cruising.

[Dick Barthel]

All good comments.

Our main push for bigger is the idea is you need a bigger boat so your grown up family and grand kids can use it with you. I've resisted because I'm just not sure that is a good reason to go bigger. My experience is that my kids and grand kids are busy with their own lives and when they do come sailing it's primarily day sailing. They don't have time for cruises.

So my wife and I remain quite content with our 25D. I'm kind of a big guy but my wife is a little thing so it all works out.

Dick