The other day we had a blustery day in Salem sound. It was terrific sailing weather. I tried different variations of reefing the main and using different size jibs, and it made me wonder the following:
In heavy airs, what are the pros and cons of using the jib only versus the mainsail only?
What about reefing the main and using the genny versus using a full main with a storm jib?
Stephen
"ELIZABETH" CD22D out of Salem, MA
sailing@star.net
Main Only v. Jib Only?
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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Ed Burger
Re: Main Only v. Jib Only?
Stephen-Stephen Crampton wrote: The other day we had a blustery day in Salem sound. It was terrific sailing weather. I tried different variations of reefing the main and using different size jibs, and it made me wonder the following:
In heavy airs, what are the pros and cons of using the jib only versus the mainsail only?
What about reefing the main and using the genny versus using a full main with a storm jib?
Stephen
"ELIZABETH" CD22D out of Salem, MA
I sail a CD22 out of Tom's River, NJ. Typical summer sailing is calm mornings, a breeze that picks up from 2PM until about three hours before sunset and then very light air. I sail with a 130 rollerfurling jib with luff tape so that I can furl the jib down to 90%. I find that in a 15+ knot breeze I've got to reduce the jib down to 100% and reef the main otherwise my lee is in the water. Even with that arrangement I'm still not comfortable but I'm controlled and generally the lee rail is under water and with a gust I find I'm dumping some air out of the main.
I may be getting older and don't want to get as wet as in my earlier years but often in 15 knots of air I will sail under the jib alone and I'm much more in control. I could probably use some advice on trimming and sail setting and using a boom vang. I did find a little improvement when this year I put a flattening reef in my main. It took a lot of the bag out of the sail and flattened it considerably.
I would also be interested in the sailing characteristics others experience with the CD22. I previously owned a CD25 and a CD28 and the sailing characteristics of the CD22 are much more tender than the 25 and 28.
Ed Burger
eburger@dplus.net
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Jon Larson
Re: Main Only v. Jib Only?
Stephen,
I think the guiding rule here is the rule of the "me" generation, if it feels good, do it. I think the major thing you want to watch for is the development of a strong helm, if you're really pushing or pulling on the tiller something is out of balance. On my CD22 (15 years ago) I used to sail with just the working jib in blustery conditions and found the pressures on the tiller stayed light,the boat had the right amount of weather helm and yet developed more than enough drive to tack with assurance. On my current CD30 my last sail I use is just the yankee alone, works fine for me. It also has the further advantage of being roller furled so everything is done from the cockpit....nice when it's really messy out and you've no young gorillas on board.
I have sailed with just the main alone in blustery conditions and I found that the pressure on the helm became so strong that at times control of the boat became a problem. That's a rather hairy experience if one is entering someplace between rip rap jetties. Carl Alberg's boats, in my opinion, seem to sail well with just a working jib.
Jon Larson
Cape Dory 30 PERI
San Francisco Bay
jon9@ix.netcom.com
I think the guiding rule here is the rule of the "me" generation, if it feels good, do it. I think the major thing you want to watch for is the development of a strong helm, if you're really pushing or pulling on the tiller something is out of balance. On my CD22 (15 years ago) I used to sail with just the working jib in blustery conditions and found the pressures on the tiller stayed light,the boat had the right amount of weather helm and yet developed more than enough drive to tack with assurance. On my current CD30 my last sail I use is just the yankee alone, works fine for me. It also has the further advantage of being roller furled so everything is done from the cockpit....nice when it's really messy out and you've no young gorillas on board.
I have sailed with just the main alone in blustery conditions and I found that the pressure on the helm became so strong that at times control of the boat became a problem. That's a rather hairy experience if one is entering someplace between rip rap jetties. Carl Alberg's boats, in my opinion, seem to sail well with just a working jib.
Jon Larson
Cape Dory 30 PERI
San Francisco Bay
Stephen Crampton wrote: The other day we had a blustery day in Salem sound. It was terrific sailing weather. I tried different variations of reefing the main and using different size jibs, and it made me wonder the following:
In heavy airs, what are the pros and cons of using the jib only versus the mainsail only?
What about reefing the main and using the genny versus using a full main with a storm jib?
Stephen
"ELIZABETH" CD22D out of Salem, MA
jon9@ix.netcom.com
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Jon Larson
Re: Main Only v. Jib Only?
Ed,
I noticed your comment about a flattening reef in your main. I found that my main on my CD30 had stretched over the years and had gotten quite baggy, I counseled with a local sailmaker here and had the sail recut at a very modest cost to reshape it for our conditions here on San Francisco Bay. It made a world of difference in all kinds of winds. It's only a suggestion that you may wish to have a chat with a local sailmaker and see if your main might not benefit from a recut in general.
Jon Larson
Cape Dory 30 PERI
San Francisco Bay
jon9@ix.netcom.com
I noticed your comment about a flattening reef in your main. I found that my main on my CD30 had stretched over the years and had gotten quite baggy, I counseled with a local sailmaker here and had the sail recut at a very modest cost to reshape it for our conditions here on San Francisco Bay. It made a world of difference in all kinds of winds. It's only a suggestion that you may wish to have a chat with a local sailmaker and see if your main might not benefit from a recut in general.
Jon Larson
Cape Dory 30 PERI
San Francisco Bay
Ed Burger wrote: I may be getting older and don't want to get as wet as in my earlier years but often in 15 knots of air I will sail under the jib alone and I'm much more in control. I could probably use some advice on trimming and sail setting and using a boom vang. I did find a little improvement when this year I put a flattening reef in my main. It took a lot of the bag out of the sail and flattened it considerably.
Ed Burger
jon9@ix.netcom.com
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Stephen Crampton
Re: Main Only v. Jib Only?
I read somewhere that you can point better with the main than with the jib? Is that so? If so, and if I'm sailing to some destination windward, wouldn't I want to use the main?
sailing@star.net
sailing@star.net
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Jon Larson
Re: Main Only v. Jib Only?
I must admit that I can't really tell you that. My main was baggy from the beginning and got more so, so I really never pointed all that well with the main. Since I've had it recut, I guess I really have to go play one day and see what the truth is.
I'll admit to a bias, the yankee has a clear uncluttered "view" of the wind, the main has the mast ahead of it. I'd guess there's be less turbulence for the jib than the main. I'll also wonder if the increased weatherhelm (by a lot) would cause more drag and slow the boat generally so that true speed made to a destination might be more.
Those are both guess, I do know that when it really gets hairy, sailing with just the yankee alone does feel MUCH better with much better control of the boat.
Jon Larson
Cape Dory 30 PERI
San Francisco Bay
jon9@ix.netcom.com
I'll admit to a bias, the yankee has a clear uncluttered "view" of the wind, the main has the mast ahead of it. I'd guess there's be less turbulence for the jib than the main. I'll also wonder if the increased weatherhelm (by a lot) would cause more drag and slow the boat generally so that true speed made to a destination might be more.
Those are both guess, I do know that when it really gets hairy, sailing with just the yankee alone does feel MUCH better with much better control of the boat.
Jon Larson
Cape Dory 30 PERI
San Francisco Bay
Stephen Crampton wrote: I read somewhere that you can point better with the main than with the jib? Is that so? If so, and if I'm sailing to some destination windward, wouldn't I want to use the main?
jon9@ix.netcom.com
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Dana Arenius
Re: Main Only v. Jib Only?
There are three major factors to consider when sailing into the wind in heavy air.
Boat helm balance, maintaining driving force into the heavier seas, and maintaining reasonable boat heel.
For most two sail rigs, the jib provides about 1-1/2 times the power of the main for the same sail area. The power that the mainsail does deliver is also depends on working with the jib.
As the wind increases, the camber position of the jib and main can be "blown back" from the idea 45-50% of cord length position. If this is left uncorrected (by tightening the jib halyard or jib cunningham..or the main sail cunningham or hayard) the center of sail effort is moved back in each sail. This leads to excessive weather helm.
Although my boat sails very well with just the jib, I am trying to reduce both sails in area and maintain balance. In this way I can provide both the sailing force into the seas and sail comfort.
Besides the adjustments which affect the luff tension, I am still "playing" with sail flatting methods using the clew cunningham and boom vang.
Dana
d_arenius@juno.com
Boat helm balance, maintaining driving force into the heavier seas, and maintaining reasonable boat heel.
For most two sail rigs, the jib provides about 1-1/2 times the power of the main for the same sail area. The power that the mainsail does deliver is also depends on working with the jib.
As the wind increases, the camber position of the jib and main can be "blown back" from the idea 45-50% of cord length position. If this is left uncorrected (by tightening the jib halyard or jib cunningham..or the main sail cunningham or hayard) the center of sail effort is moved back in each sail. This leads to excessive weather helm.
Although my boat sails very well with just the jib, I am trying to reduce both sails in area and maintain balance. In this way I can provide both the sailing force into the seas and sail comfort.
Besides the adjustments which affect the luff tension, I am still "playing" with sail flatting methods using the clew cunningham and boom vang.
Dana
d_arenius@juno.com
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Catherine Monaghan
Re: Main Only v. Jib Only?
Jon's correct. The last thing you want is a baggy mainsail. When the wind kicks up, it needs to be flat.
The next time you're out sailing, site up the sail and take note of its draft. Then try to flatten the mainsail by tightening the halyard and the boom vang and letting the traveller out to leeward. Use the cunningham too since you've got one. If you cannot flatten it, you probably need to see a sailmaker.
catherine_monaghan@merck.com
CD32, Realization
Raritan Bay
catherine_monaghan@merck.com
The next time you're out sailing, site up the sail and take note of its draft. Then try to flatten the mainsail by tightening the halyard and the boom vang and letting the traveller out to leeward. Use the cunningham too since you've got one. If you cannot flatten it, you probably need to see a sailmaker.
catherine_monaghan@merck.com
CD32, Realization
Raritan Bay
Ed Burger wrote:Stephen-Stephen Crampton wrote: The other day we had a blustery day in Salem sound. It was terrific sailing weather. I tried different variations of reefing the main and using different size jibs, and it made me wonder the following:
In heavy airs, what are the pros and cons of using the jib only versus the mainsail only?
What about reefing the main and using the genny versus using a full main with a storm jib?
Stephen
"ELIZABETH" CD22D out of Salem, MA
I sail a CD22 out of Tom's River, NJ. Typical summer sailing is calm mornings, a breeze that picks up from 2PM until about three hours before sunset and then very light air. I sail with a 130 rollerfurling jib with luff tape so that I can furl the jib down to 90%. I find that in a 15+ knot breeze I've got to reduce the jib down to 100% and reef the main otherwise my lee is in the water. Even with that arrangement I'm still not comfortable but I'm controlled and generally the lee rail is under water and with a gust I find I'm dumping some air out of the main.
I may be getting older and don't want to get as wet as in my earlier years but often in 15 knots of air I will sail under the jib alone and I'm much more in control. I could probably use some advice on trimming and sail setting and using a boom vang. I did find a little improvement when this year I put a flattening reef in my main. It took a lot of the bag out of the sail and flattened it considerably.
I would also be interested in the sailing characteristics others experience with the CD22. I previously owned a CD25 and a CD28 and the sailing characteristics of the CD22 are much more tender than the 25 and 28.
Ed Burger
catherine_monaghan@merck.com