Rudder and/or tiller problem?????

ramanning · Post by **ramanning** » Jun 11th, '06, 18:34

This is only my second sailing season with my Typhoon Weekender, and I have noticed something unusual about my tiller. Could someone please advise me if this is normal, or do I have a problem, and if a problem, what is the solution.

Where the tiller clamps onto what I call the rudder post or stem is where the situation lies. I can pull up on my tiller where it clamps onto this post and it slides up about one inch. The actual rudder post or stem is what is moving, not the clamping device of the tiller. Is this normal, or do I have a problem? The boat steers sweetly and smoothly, everything feels tight, and I cannot detect any other problems with it.

Please advise either way.
Thank you,
Bob Manning
"Second Wind"
Cheboygan, MI.

Oswego John · Post by **Oswego John** » Jun 11th, '06, 21:22

Hi Bob,

This situation, as you reported, is not normal and is a potentially serious problem if nothing is done to remedy the situation.

Sooner or later, it's only a matter of time when, CD owners, especially of Typhoons, find out that the achilles heel of their boat is the rudder system in one way or another.

Is your Ty in the water or is it still on the hard? It will be somewhere between difficult and impossible to remedy the situation if the boat is in the water.

I'm not sure what your lower rudder post setup is like on your 1982 model. I don't know if the later years Tys converted to a gudgeon and pintle system or continued using the earlier system. The earlier models had a 3/4" bronze rudder post supported at it's lower end in a bronze cup that was attached to the keel extension by silicon bronze rivets which were encased in glass.

This cup bearing is only a tad deeper than 1", no more than 1 1/4". When you pull up on the rudder post, you are dangerously close to having the post pop out of the cup bearing. Because of the slant of the post, the post will try to pendulum and it will be next to impossible, with lack of any leverage, to insert the post back into the cup. Most likely, it will be necessary to dive and hand guide the post back into the cup should this happen. I advise you not to pull up on the tiller, tiller strap or post.

If the boat is on the hard, there are several ways to remedy the situation. One of the quick fixes is to drill a pilot clearance hole up through the bottom of the cup bearing. Next, drill a tap size hole up into the bottom of the post. Tap the post. Insert a silicon bronze bolt through a bronze flat washer, through the clearance hole in the bottom of the cup and thread it into the threaded hole in the bottom of the post. I coat the edges of the clearance hole with grease and rub 5200 on the bolt threads before screwing the bolt into the post. When the bolt is threaded into the post, a loose fit should remain so as to prevent binding and friction.

Another quick fix is to cut a slit somewhere midway up the rudder blade, just aft and touching the post.. Pass a bronze alloy, flexible strap sideways through the slit. Bend both sides of the bronze alloy strip foreward to create a horseshoe extending about 4" or so on either side of the keel extension. Grind grooves in the extension. Predrill the strap and secure with silicon bronze rivets or nuts and bolts. Encase all in glass and sand flush.

Hopefully, others will offer other methods to fix your problem.

Good luck,
O J
PS: As an afterthought, if your rudder post and support are stainless steel, use similar metal for the strap. O J

ramanning · Post by **ramanning** » Jun 12th, '06, 07:14

O.J.,

Thank you for all that information.

The boat is already launched, am I in danger of loosing my rudder? Will it fall completely off the boat if the system fails? Or if I do not pull up on the tiller will I be able to sail for the season?

You gave me a lot of technical information that I do not really understand, please forgive my ignorance. Is there some place I can further refer to that may have some illustrations or step by step directions to help me through the fix it process?

Is there anyone else who has a 1982 or newer Typhoon Weekender that has dealt with this problem and can help me?

Bob

rtbates · Post by **rtbates** » Jun 12th, '06, 08:28

I read your thread twice and didn't see any reference to the rudder shaft moving up as well. It SHOULD. If just the tiller clamp is moving up and the rudder shaft is not then the connection bolt between the two is loose. If the entire assembly, rudder shaft and tiller clamp raise together, it's good. By pulling up on the tiller clamp and expsing the rudder shaft is how you get grease to the top bearing.

ramanning · Post by **ramanning** » Jun 12th, '06, 10:34

Randy,

Thank you for your reply/info.

Yes, it is the rudder shaft, stem, post, or whatever the proper term for it is, that is moving, not the tiller clamp as I clearly state in paragraph two of my initial post.

So if that is the case you are saying that is "normal" or "good" and I do not have a problem? This seem to be the complete opposite advice that O.J. is giving me.

Now a new problem: whose advice to take?

Anyone else out there who can address this situation?

Thanks,
Bob

rtbates · Post by **rtbates** » Jun 12th, '06, 11:08

You wrote

I can pull up on my tiller where it clamps onto this post and it slides up about one inch.

Does it take the rudder post along with it?

Your post sounds like the tiller clamp moves up the rudder shaft. IF it does YES you have a problem. If on the other hand the tiller clamps moves upward taking the rudder shaft with it, then all is swell.

The rudder shaft/tiller clamp/tiller should move vertically as a unit when pulled upward. My 25D's moves about 1/2 " or so.

sloopjohnl · Post by **sloopjohnl** » Jun 12th, '06, 22:17

as of 1976, the wooden tiller is bolted to the tiller clamp, the tiller clamp slides over the rudder post and is secured in position on the post by a bolt that acts as a set screw. there is a tube that protrudes thru the cockpit sole (floor) and extends down to the hull which contains the rudder post and thru which the rudder post exits. if the tiller is secured to the clamp, and the clamp is secured to the rudder post, when you grab the aft end of the tiller and the clamp and can lift vertically one to two inches you have a problem. there is only about a half-inch max clearance between the top of the rudder and the hull when the rudder is centered.

if the set screw/bolt loosens, the tiller and clamp will rotate on the rudder post and you will have no steerage or it may slip a bit so that steering feels sloppy.

marka · Post by **marka** » Jun 13th, '06, 11:57

I think OJ is describinbg a potential condition where the rudder pintle is moving vertically out of the bronze casting that holds it.

If the rudder shaft is indeed moving vertically, a second condition may exist and in fact does exist on our '27.

The bottom of the rudder has a bearing surface which the pintle fits into. The rudder moves up relative to the pintle but the pintle stays tight in its bronze housing.

I did a pintle replacement on our '27 2 seasons ago and the rudder will move up about 3/4 inch as you describe. If this is the condition you are seeing then, no problem.

Serge Zimberoff · Post by **Serge Zimberoff** » Jun 13th, '06, 13:17

Bob,

I have an '84 and it is identical to Oswego John's description. I suggest that you take his advice asap. You can't do it in the water, however so just don't let the rudder post move upwards. I'm surprised that 1" travel didn't get you already into trouble.

If it did come out of the bearing cup while sailing there would be way too much lateral pressure to get it realigned with any ease.

Even by taking up the teak plate from the cockpit sole I can't think of any temporary keeper you could install to keep you out of trouble so it may be prudent to pull the boat out for a week. Oswego John's bolt cure sounds like it wouldn't take more than one day of work and you could be sailing with peace of mind pretty quickly.

My 2¢ only...

Serge

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