Autopilot vs windvane Will it sove my problem?

[L.DeMers]

Howdy all,
Last summer we did some extensive open lake sailing, with an overnight crossing of 120 miles or so. One thing that did not work for us was the autopilot. The winds were in the 15-20k range, coming from the starboard quarter. The autopilot would not react fast enough to prevent several round-ups, bordering on a full broach in 7-9 ft seas. This meant that we had to hand steer for 15 hours, which was a bit long.

I am wondering if a windvane would be any more successful at reacting to a wave set from the quarter, and prevent these round-ups into the wind?

Any opinions or experience out there?

Cheers,

[Peter Drake]

"The most challenging direction for a windvane or autopilot is downwind. The most common complaint about autopilots is that they are not fast enough. If they work in tough downwind conditions, they use a great deal of electricity, requiring a good deal of charging.

Not all windvanes work in these conditions, but a few good ones do. Understanding the gear and its operation is important, but we have many testimonies about superb downwind performances in surfing speeds up to 15- 18 knots in ultralight, fin keel, downwind flyers, which are the most difficult boats to steer downwind. Windvanes also work very well with a lot of slow, heavy, hard-to-steer vessels.

Should there be a major windshift while sailing downwind in the trades and the autopilot is steering a magnetic course, the boat will gybe accidentally, which can be a serious incident. With a windvane steering, the boat will steer downwind and follow the wind, much preferred to an accidental gybe."

www.selfsteer.com

[Neil Gordon]

Should there be a major windshift while sailing downwind in the trades and the autopilot is steering a magnetic course, the boat will gybe accidentally, which can be a serious incident.

But can't some autopilots be integrated with the wind indicator?

[Peter Drake]

"A small, inexpensive tiller type autopilot, using minimal power, can be rigged to control the Saye’s Rig. The Saye’s Rig in turn drives the main rudder. Steer by the wind or by compass. "

www.selfsteer.com

[Peter Drake]

"A small, inexpensive, electronic tiller-pilot can be rigged up to the counterweight of the auto-helm windvane. Instead of the airvane moving the trimtab, the electric autopilot will move it with minimum power consumption. To minimize interference the airvane is reefed to a horizontal position. This is an excellent set up for motoring or when sailing a close compass course."

www.selfsteer.com

[Peter Drake]

"A small inexpensive tiller pilot, with low power consumption, can be hooked up to the Monitor counter weight or to a 10 inch (25 cm) stump substituting for the regular airvane. Instead of having an autopilot turn the boat’s large rudder you are only asking the autopilot to turn the small semi balanced Monitor servo oar. This oar will then turn the boat’s rudder with the water flow providing the power. This way you can steer even a 60 ft boat with a small autopilot The least expensive tiller pilots can push 80-100 lbs., but only a couple of pounds are actually needed for this hook-up to work. If you go up to the next level of tiller pilots, you can have remote control or a separate compass unit that can be placed out of the weather and at a place that is easy to reach.

This autopilot hook-up has many advantages and would be preferred when you want to follow a magnetic compass course rather than the wind direction. The autopilot can also be interfaced with the GPS. When there is no wind and you are under power, or in extremely light air, the combination autopilot/windvane might be the best possible way to achieve perfect self-steering with minimum power consumption. This was initially invented because many windvanes have difficulty to steer downwind. If you want to protect the small tiller pilot and keep it away from saltwater, you can put it in the lazarette and connect it to the Monitor with a small Morse cable. It is up to each individual owner to work out the best arrangement since every boat is different.

The very sensitive Monitor, together with a good skipper, should be able to self-steer without the use of the autopilot - especially with the much larger light airvane. In our opinion, this provides personal satisfaction, is quieter and more related to sailing. Call it a challenge."

www.selfsteer.com

[Andy Denmark]

You have asked a question with a nearly impossible answer as this problem is getting a number of non-linear dynamic systems to get in phase with one another and work as a coordinated system. (James Gleick, CHAOS)

Here are a few things in play in your situation as I see it. Wave action, changing wind angle that is affected by irregular course fluctuations, constantly changing sail trim from the above (probably main overpowered at times -- rounding up tendency), insufficient autopilot reaction time, lagging response time due to underbody configuration (full keel), plus more, I'm sure.

And perhaps the most significant consideration with wind much aft of the beam, neither the A/P nor a vane will have the "anticipation" necessary to work over the waves by steering. Remember our one-design experience and how we had to predict with "seat of the pants" intuition before a wave impacted the hull (or course, or trim, or planing, or whatever) This is, of course, impossible for a simple machine like an A/P or windvane to do well if at all. Obviously you had no trouble hand steering and that probably was because you could anticipate where the A/P could not.

There are solutions to this with the autopilot. Reducing sail drastically takes out (or at least helps damp) one of the gross variables. Reducing mainsail to minimum size and carrying a small jib keeps the sail plan more "balanced. "Tacking downwind" to keep as far away from "dead down" as possible might be an option but this puts you in the wave troughs if carried too far. Most later autopilots have both reaction time and rudder angle adjustments that will help if put on maximum speed and angle. (Usually these are not readily done.)

With the vane, my only experiences in these sorts of conditions had us with seriously reduced sail area, sometimes with the main down altogether, selecting a course on which the boat handled best, and sometimes even trailing lines (looped chain rodes work very well). These things failing, going dead down (well, 5-10 deg either side in reality) under bare poles or storm jib alone made life easier. Getting to an exact destination sometimes had to be foregone for ease of handling. (But this falls into the purvue of "schedules" and any aspect of sailing don't mix. Somehow trying to anticipate what weather systems might do could also relate here in some way).

All this begs a few questions, too. Like those who choose to sail dead downwind, I ask "why be in that situation in the first place unless you absolutely have to be?" Like "Englishmen never sail to weather," I think anyone who intentionally sails dead down in any sort of heavy conditions is a bit sadomasochistic anyway.

Just a few random thoughts I've pondered myself. Hope some of this makes sense and has applicable meaning.

This should be a good thread!
________
PENNY STOCK

[Matt Cawthorne]

I am going to have to try it myself.

[Tom Keevil]

Hi Larry,

Nice to see you back.

Jean and I did an overnight last spring where the winds built to 20-25 kts and the "significant wave height" was 12-15 feet (according to the NOAA buoy data. That is the average of the highest 1/3 of the waves). We were also broad reaching with the wind over our quarter. We have an Autohelm 4000 on our CD 33.

With a double-reefed main and the jib rolled up a bit, we had to manually steer also. However, when we lowered the main entirely, and just ran on the reefed jib, the autohelm was able to handle it pretty well. The seas were somewhat confused, with a west swell and a southerly wind wave pattern, and there were rain squalls moving through. Occasionally a wave/wind combination would toss us around and backwind the jib. However, given a chance the autohelm always brought us back around. A few times I didn't want to wait, and manually brought it back, but I'm not sure it was necessary. I think the key was not having the mainsail up.

I have to agree with Andy, however, that the best choice would have been not to be there in the first place. It was neither comfortable nor fun.

[patturner]

I currently have a Monitor and a CPT wheel pilot. As much as I enjoy watching the Monitor at work I would probably opt for a below decks autopilot if I were setting up again. The wheel pilots are just too slow and a windvane has it's limitations as well. Unless your crossing an ocean the drain on power that a below decks ap might incur doesn't seem to me to be a hugh issue. Plus a good strong, fast (that's the key) ap doesn't care if it's blowing 40knts or 4knts or from where it's coming from - it just goes. Yes it's true that being electrical it may poop out for some reason, but once again unless your crossing an ocean and really can't afford for a problem like that to happen - I wouldn't get too hung up on it. So how your using the boat has some influence obviously. If money were not a consideration, have both, but money usually is and so I'd opt for the one solution that would carry me through most situations for the kind of sailing I'm doing.
________
Ford Ex
________
SUZUKI RGV500

[John Ring]

I have an ST4000 on my wheel steered CD28. This past summer, we were caught in a bit of deteriorating weather coming back across the Gulf of Maine, and ended up broad reaching in about 25kts with confused seas as a grey dreary low pressure system crossed the Gulf. We took a little white water in the cockpit, and the boat was swinging through about 45 degrees of arc as the autopilot steered us along.

My autopilot is about 10 years old, and like most, holds course via a fluxgage compass. I understand some newer models use a gyro assisted guidance system (to supplement the fluxgate compass) that reportedly has a faster response time.

Does anyone have any experience with the newer gyro assisted systems currently available?

Here is a link to Raymarine's description of their system; http://www.raymarine.com/raymarine/Defa ... 4&Parent=5

John Ring
CD28 #241 Tantalus
www.yachttantalus.com

[Larry M]

Larry,
On our 33 I have a monitor and a autohelm wheel pilot. the vane is great in all conditions except on a broad reach to dead down wind. Pat is correct re the below decks autopilot. On our new boat we have a WH below deck pilot that is pretty amazing. This summer we experienced conditions similar to what you described and the pilot drove the boat perfectly. I am still going to put the monitor on the new boat because on the other points of sail I prefer the silence and lack of energy draw.
larry M

[Ben Thomas]

Last year I replaced the ST4000 wheel pilot on My CD 30 with components from Raymarine. Components consisted of the S1G corepack, type 1 linear drive and the ST6000 control head. The rudder arm a key part for the linear drive is an Edson product.
This was a DIY project. Interfacing the new pieces into the existing system of ST 60 depth,speed, windvane, RL80CRC below & the RL70C at helm were fairly straight forward at the Seatalk and Nema buss bars.
The most difficult part of the install was making the mounting block for the linear drive. A vertical piece that matched the compound curves of the hull in the port lazarette. It took several stages of mock ups before I had the final piece, 2 inch thick laminated baltic birch that was glassed in/ onto the the hull. A tight but do-able fit. It was matched up to the swing of the rubber arm. and the arm of the linear drive.
The performance of the system is beyond my expectations. Smooth, quiet & very responsive (you can fine tune) on all points of sail. Beating into weather when I am solo the autotack feature is great, allows me to tack and trim with no hands on wheel. Ran it off the windvane under gennaker in 12-18 knots, no adrenaline rushes, something the 4000 had difficulty handling and never used after a couple attempts. Admittedly the system is way over kill for the size of my boat...some eyebrows have been lifted giving me an odd look..but I like it.
Components were close outs or re-furburished units from Raymarine with warranties other wise way to expensive.

Ben

[Domenic]

It seems to me, that all the people who Sail to Europe and back. Trust there life on the windvane. They sware on it.

[L.DeMers]

Thanks guys. I am still reluctant to spend $3k on a windvane at this point, as the boat is already low in the stern. But clearly, the AP did not handle the load or speed requirements that we ran into.
Conditions were not bad really, but once underway, we don't turn back (at least not yet).
The autopilot would also throw in what I called a "Crazy Ivan" every now and again, causing a 90 deg. course change, just when you were getting close to snoozing in the cockpit.

This was our first long night crossing, so it was a relief to see the 'lakers' at night, visually. They are lit up like a strip mall! These 1000 ft. monsters have all of their offices and quarters in the stern of the ship, in a tall block of buildings about 7 stories high. Each room within this structure has it's lights on full, and they can be seen thru each rooms window, so that these ships look like a Christmas Tree from the back (the building is pyramid shaped). Maybe you have to have been there...sigh.

Anyway, Thanks for the info everyone.

Cheers,