33 vs. 330

[Dean Abramson]

I am looking at CD 33s and 330s. ( Actually, I have not physically been on either.) If cost were not a consideration, which boat would you choose?

It would appear to me that the main drawback with the 330 is lack of a quarter birth. On my 25D, we use the quarter berth for storing all manner of things, accessible from inside the cabin. Plus it makes a great underway berth, not needing leecloths.

From what I read, it appears that the 330's V-berth is superior, it has the anchor bowsprit, and it has the twin-headsail rig (which some might not consider an advantage, but which intriques me). How much storage space is there inside the cabin? Is the head very user-friendly? Any complaints about the galley? Is it the same mast as on the 33? Can you weigh anchor without a windlass? Is there any room for a windlass? Do any 330 owners wish now that they had bought a 33 instead?

Do any 33 owners wish they had bought a 330 (if cost had not been a factor)?

Since the 330s were built at the very end of Capy Dory's history, is it possible that the workmanship had begun to go downhill? Were they made with other engines besides the Universal? I now have a Yanmar and really like it, but one boat I am eyeing has a Universal.

I keep hearing about making the inner stay detachable. Can those who have done this tell me about your headsail routine? Do you just tune the inner stay once at the beginning of the season, or does having it detachable mean that tuning is an ongoing project? Is there any non-Mickey-Mouse way to have the inner stay detached, but with the staysail still hanked on and ready to raise? Clearly this would mean not using the boom. Does anyone out there with a twin-headsail rig NOT use the boom; and if so, what are the pros/cons?

I would very much appreciate any feedback on these two boats, and also any pros/cons about the 32 (even though they are hard to come by).

I know it's a lot. Please feel free to comment on any or all! THANKS!

Dean

[Bill Goldsmith]

Dean;

I looked at several 33s and 330s before I found my 32.

The 33 and the 330 are essentially very different boats built out of the same hull. You pointed out the main differences:

-330 normal v-berth vs. the 33 "creative" angled v-berth
-330 with double headsail "cutter-wannabe" rig vs. 33 sloop

Keep in mind that the 330 lack of a quarter berth is not a drawback but a design feature. You end up with much greater cockpit locker storage on the 330 because of no q-berth. It all depends on what you need.

Other differences:
--330 has the more modern (read: less traditional) t-shaped cockpit and molded coamings
--330 has cabin-top traveler vs. the 33's bridge-deck traveler
--330 has factory installed gas (CNG or propane) whereas the 33 was designed for an alcohol stove--propane is a refit.
--330 has a head with separate shower stall, 33 has shower in head
--330 has the beautiful teak companionway ladder, while the 33 has the steel with teak treads. Tradeoffs--the steel one is probably less bulky, but the teak one is gorgeous and provides more sure-footing.

I was thrilled to find a 32 because it combined the features of the 33 and the 330 that suited *my* needs best, and I actually preferred the fact it came in a slightly smaller package.

-My 32 was set up as double headsail "cutter-wannabe" with bowsprit, etc.
-We have 3 kids and the whole family enjoys weekending and a couple of longer trips each year. So the q-berth is crucial, as well as the factory propane installation to feed all those hungry mouths.
With the 33 you get the q-berth but no propane. With the 330 you get the propane but no q-berth. Finally the 32s are about the same vintage as the 330s, a few years younger than the 33s out there (although with CDs age is less important than the TLC a boat has received). The 32 was the perfect compromise. Any of the three models can be found for 1/2 the price of a similar vintage and condition 36.

[Leo MacDonald]

Hi Dean,

Bill covered the high points very well.

The minor additions I have are;

- A very few CD33 were double headsail sloops (as Bill refers to as "cutter-wannabe" with bowsprit and limited access rode stowage (been aboard an 85 CD33 so arranged) - very similar to the CD330.

- The CD33 Rode Locker has an on deck hatch for storing the anchor line. I found on my CD30K that I spent a little while during anchor aweigh exercise feeding the line through the little (~3 in.) hole. With a hatch it is a lot quicker. An 'all chain' rode would not have this problem.

- The CD33 Nav. Station faces forward as you sit on the fwd edge of the Q'Berth, while the CD330 has a swing out stool and you face to Stbd.

- The CD330 mast is taller - look at the CD spec pages.

- As Bill said they both use the same hull, and Cape Dory used a continuance of the hull numbering when shifting from the 33 to the 330 (~1985 ish.) But the deck mold and interior layout are different puppies of the same mother. The CD330 interior cabin trunk is 3 in. wider, and that means each side deck is 1-1/2 in. narrower than the CD33. (I wanted a wide deck.)

- Also as Bill mentioned, with the 33s built from 1980 to 85 and the CD330 from 1985 to ~1988, the vintage is less important than the P.O.s attention to maintenance and care.

- The 33s were factory equipped with a one of two diesel engines:
1. A Volvo MD11C, 2 Cyl., 23 HP, typically Raw Water cooled - a very heavy and robust engine that would go on and on. Good engine, bad transmission - periodically snapping an internal lever that left you with out and selection ability. (Feel free to ask Al Lawton, Mike Ritenour, etc.)
2. Or a Universal Model _?_, 3 Cyl., 24 HP, and if RAW Water cooled all these years, not worth rebuilding (a lot less robust engine.)
If you decide on a CD33 look for one re-engined (and the quality of the work) or a Fresh Water cooled Universal.

Good Searching to you

Fair Winds,
Leo MacDonald
'Evening Light' CD33 No. 38
Pine Isl. Bay, Groton, CT

[Ron Legan]

A few more things about the CD 330. I have a windlass installed right behind the bow sprit, it covers the area used by the jib boom mount. I removed the self tending jib boon and mount and replaced with a self tending unit from Forespar (Quickattachment Stayfitting). this fitting fits on the stay and the boom is secured to it. Works well, but securing the rig takes a little more effort. I have a removable forestay and tune it by feel. I usually use the boat as a sloop and run a 130 genoa. The extra stay is secured to the starboard life line.

You can raise an anchor w/o an windlass, depending on you and your crew, as well as the equipment used. But I think the windlass is the better choice.

* I have owned a CD 28 and to compare the workmanship seems the same. both boats had issues, but in general great boats, well made.

* I bought the 330 over a 33 because of all the listed features. I really liked the interior better, and the mainsheet traveler on the cockpit roof was very important to me.

The universal engine has not been a problem, running fine with appox 900 hours. My CD 28 had an volvo, as was bullet proof.

The CD 330 is rare and I paid a premium for her, but no regrets to date.

Regards,

Ron Legan
ANDIAMO CD 330
Bainbridge Island, Washington

[M. R. Bober]

Since you asked:

The CD330 has a "double wide" (double long??) head with a shower room (booth?) separated from the toilet/sink basin.

RESPITE has a cabin sole mounted table. The starboard settee is "L" shaped.

SIGNIFICANT ITEM: The cockpit coamings are not plank-on-edge, but rather are wide and comfy to sit upon.

The lid of the navigation station is level & formica clad and can serve as galley counter space.

The "T" shaped cockpit costs two "fair weather" bunks. Unless you are very short & narrow.

Be careful not to over load the extra cockpit locker or the 330 will squat at the stern.

Either would be fine. However there were only 22 330s made, and they can be hard to find.

One more thing to consider: 330 sailors tend to be wiser & better looking--by universal consensus-- than their shipmates on the 33s.


Mitchell Bober
Sunny Annapolis (home of the World CD330 Cup ( & saucer, too!)), MD

[Zeida Cecilia-Mendez]

"One more thing to consider: 330 sailors tend to be wiser & better looking--by universal consensus-- than their shipmates on the 33s. "... quote by Mitch Bober-

EXCUSE ME!!!!!!

Bandolera II, a 1982 CD-33 has the raw-water cooled Universal 5424 Model #30 with slightly over 2000 hours on it and a Hurth 100 tranny. I am seriously thinking about repowering with the Beta diesel, 28 hp. The old Universals are a problem with many parts no longer available! With only 3 motor mounts, it has lots of vibration.

I would not give up the quarter berth for anything! The best place to sleep, great for stowing gear during travel. Beware of blisters in the hull of the 33's. I still love my boat.

[Frank Vernet]

...Zeida wins hands-down!!! No contest eventhough you cut a dashing figure.

Zeida - I saw your muzing about repowering and throw this out for your consideration only.

IMHO, our CD33s are way-underpowered with the 24HP Universal. I fear that repowering with 28HP is only marginally better.

Everything I've read on the topic suggests that a HP range of 1HP/ft LOA to 5HP/ton of displacement. For our CD33s, that's a range of 33HP to ~65HP. I realize that, among other considerations, the size of the engine "room" is a limiting factor, but I thought I ought to mention it before you write that BIG check.

Good luck.

[Dean Abramson]

I very much appreciate everyone's input. More is welcome, of course. Cape Dory folks are great! I am not sure where CD25D owners fit in in the Best-Looking Sweepstakes, but keep this in mind: we only LOOK bigger, because the boat is smaller...

Dean

[Leo MacDonald]

Hi Zeida, et el,

With respect to our fellow sailors and published sailing authors, I'm of the opinion that we think we need more HP in our Sailboats.

E.L. has been repowered by a PO with a Westerbeke model 27A (27 HP), and that is more than enough. Leaving the pier (for a 'test') she went from zero to 5 Kts in 20 seconds - how much faster do I need to accelerate? I do 'cruising speed' (~5.0-5.2 Kts) into a headwind and a chop.

'Heather Ann', CD30K, had a 13 HP Volvo which would also push her along just fine; cruising speed in a headwind/chop and hull speed in flat water, etc.

Fair Winds,
Leo MacDonald
'Evening Light' CD33 No. 38
Pine Isl. Bay, Groton, CT

[Frank Vernet]

With equal respect for erudite and dissenting opinions, allow me to expend on my previous post.

The HP range I mentioned is the findings of surveys done of cruisers when asked to describe their “ideal” cruising boat. The desire for a large engine was a common response (e.g. when in a tight situation, clawing off a lee shore, bucking a 5 kt current, etc). The 1HP/Ft of LOA was generally considered the absolute minimum, the 5HP/ton was the other extreme.

Granted cruisers experience conditions and circumstances more varied and threatening than Chesapeake Bay sailors or coastal cruisers, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

A personal anecdote: Returning from Annapolis to our marina after Labor Day 2004. Evening trip with 12-15 kt winds and 2ft swells. We motored our sailboat all the way back as the wind was dead ahead...all the way back. What is normally a 45 minute trip took 2+ hrs. At times, we were barely making headway. That night, I wished I had an additional 10-15HP available.

I remain your most obedient, & Very Humble Servt.

[Warren Kaplan]

Jon Vigor and others in previous threads have often pointed out that the power available for actual use can be limited by the size of the prop and its pitch. Our CD boats have configurations where the prop size is limited by the aperture in our keels.

I don't know if this sitution applies to this specific discussion, but Jon Vigor often says that a prop of a particular size and pitch can "transmit" only so much usable horsepower through the prop to the water. Any horsepower above that is just plain wasted.

I guess a consultation with a prop manufacturer would be advised before springing for a repower with a larger engine, much of whose horsepower may never be usable.

[Paul D.]

I would like to put a note in for a few things. I have a few shots of our 33 on the post 'New cape dory photo of the day.'

1) I LOVE our 33. I have several items I really valued (and I never thought we would actually get in a boat!) when searching and now I found they are really nice.

2) The Quarter berth is used all the time. I think of it like a hatchback car. If I want to stow stuff I can and usually there is stuff there. BUT, like a hatchback, I can fold up the seats and take people, I can clear the Q- berth out and sleep someone when needed, or use it as a sea berth. With a nice leecloth I fashioned for the starboard settee, I now have two good ones. The port settee is fine too if you pull it out to the table and stuff soft luggage in there. So there is really three.

3) I think the Universal 24hp is fine and I rev the hell out of it, diesels were designed to be ran hard so I don't have the issue with HP need that others do. If I repowered I would probably go with the Beta as they use the Kubota block.

4) With the 33's mainsheet in the cockpit, I can very easily sail this boat alone. I mean really sail it, like up into little harbours, tacking and jibing easily. So the motor for me is truly an auxillary, being on a mooring helps that reaoning though. Even so, with the stock Michigan three blade prop, I have usually had good luck docking and backing. Of course, that luck could change at any moment!

5) I like the traditional layout below, spend little time in the head but when I do it works well without hogging space. I prpbably would like the 330's V-berth though. But the 33 foreward cabin is really nice for one! And with two you just snuggle in tight and roll over (Maybe I could write a step by step description someday) and flip around somehow to get out without too much difficulty. I am 6 foot but light framed so this may work for me and not others.

6) I settled for the sloop, but have come to really enjoy it. Simple, easy to tack and fun upwind. Also fast to get sailing and put to bed, which I consider important. Eventually I will add an inner forestay or use a gale sail when I get motivated.

7) I can sleep in the cockpit and it is easy to clean up.

8) We have a propane oven aboard and it does not look like a refit. It has a dedicated, draining cockpit locker for two tanks and a Hillerange three burner stove and oven, not flashy but hard working, just use your own thermometer! I replaced the regulator, hoses and tank valves last year for under $250.

9) I could keep going, like take on the stunning beauty of the 33's owners versus the 330's. (Even though they paid more for their haircuts!) But suffice it to say that for the price, and with 8 or so boats in different locales for sale right now, I think the 33 is very close to a can't go wrong choice.

But then again, I am rather biased. Maybe I'll post some more shots of her tonight. It is snowing after all.

It is kind of fun putting together the things you want in a boat eh? We are lucky to be able to do so. Best of luck with your search. Feel free to email me with any specific questions on the 33.

Paul Danicic
1982 CD 33 Femme du Nord
Snowed Under in the frozen north

[Frank Vernet]

Jon Vigor and others in previous threads have often pointed out that the power available for actual use can be limited by the size of the prop and its pitch. Our CD boats have configurations where the prop size is limited by the aperture in our keels.

I don't know if this situation applies to this specific discussion, but Jon Vigor often says that a prop of a particular size and pitch can "transmit" only so much usable horsepower through the prop to the water. Any horsepower above that is just plain wasted.

I guess a consultation with a prop manufacturer would be advised before springing for a repower with a larger engine, much of whose horsepower may never be usable.

As always, and I mean ALWAYS, Warren makes very good points. Prop size constraint will limit the size of the engine - after all why would you attach a 12" prop to a 100HP engine? You just cannot transfer all that "uumph" to the water!

But I am still of the opinion that you ought to all have all the HP that makes sense....just in case

Happy dreams of sailing....as we brace for another snow/icestorm in 20F.

Zeida - will you take a boarder...pleeeeeeeaaaaazzzzzz? I'm pretty handy around a boat...especially a CD33 and I clean up after myself

[Dean Abramson]

Hi, Mitchell,

You wrote: "The "T" shaped cockpit costs two "fair weather" bunks. Unless you are very short & narrow."

Are you saying that because of the notch around the wheel, the cockpit seats are not comfortable for stretching out on? I do not sleep outside on my 25D, but I spend a LOT of time stretched out in the cockpit reading!

Any other comments out there regarding "to T or not to T?"

Thanks again, everyone.

Dean

[M. R. Bober]

Hi, Mitchell,

You wrote: "The "T" shaped cockpit costs two "fair weather" bunks. Unless you are very short & narrow."

Are you saying that because of the notch around the wheel, the cockpit seats are not comfortable for stretching out on? ...

Dean

That's affirmative. I used to snooze comfortably in the cockpit of TIA MARI (our 1979 CD27), but not so on the 330. If I am very careful and aim my feet astern and don't roll, it's possible to stretch out. With my feet aimed towards the bow, the wheel & my shoulders meet.

The "bench" is probably less than 10" wide aft of the wheel. Consider a boom slung hammock.

Mitchell Bober
Sunny Annapolis (where we sleep after the boat is hauled for the winter), MD