Headsail suggestions

[Joe Myerson]

I shouldn't have added this question to what turned out to be a very long disquisition on boom vangs, mid-boom sheeting, double mainsheets and preventers. So I'm posting it as a separate thread. (Neil and Didereaux, this will give you both a chance to add to your total of postings, perhaps.)

What's the best size headsail to get for a windy environment like Buzzards Bay? I'm currently sailing with my boat's original working jib (24 years old next season). I've replaced the main, which has made all the difference in the world in terms of upwind sailing and general performance, but I will probably have to wait one more season before replacing the headsail.

Right now I'm planning to get a 110 because of the area's strong prevailing winds. That's the size jib my sailmaker fashioned for his Pearson Aerial, and it seemed to make sense when sailing under a single- and even double-reefed mainsail in a 20-knot-plus afternoon seabreeze.

But now I'm starting to wonder if I'd do better ordering a sail with more overlap. I could, perhaps, keep it partially furled except when sailing with a crew or downwind.

Does this make sense?

If so, what sizes do folks recommend?

And what about sail shape when keeping the sail partially furled?

Thanks, as always, for the board's sage advice and salty commentary.

--Joe Myerson

[Didereaux]

Joe,
Your left to Neil (my condolences LOL) I hank , not yank! ;)

[Neil Gordon]

Difficult decision because the 20 kt prevailing wind isn't the only wind you'll experience. What about sailing in the morning? Those occasional lighter air days? What about sailing on my side of the canal?

What sort of cruising will you be doing over the next ten years or so? Afternoon sailing on Buzzards Bay, I'd go with the smaller jib. Crossing Cape Cod Bay to P-town, I'd want more sail area.

For me, the light air go slow or motor dilema would have me going for the larger sail and accepting the partially furled compromise.

[Drew]

Neil - Forgive me, but I'm new here. You are sailing a 28, correct? I thought it was possible to keep the club-foot, working jib, and put a larger jenny on a roller fuller in front of it. Does that make any sense? Can you do it on a 25?

Thanks for any insight. I am looking at perhaps buying a 28 in the spring - we'll see. Drew

[Dan the Dory Fan]

you can find a smaller outfit that will make a triradial for you (the big lofts won't) which reef much flatter.

If your not too far from the north shore check out Downs Sails in Danvers MA. Cut great sails at a reasonable price.

[Dick Barthel]

Neil,

How practical is it to think in terms of changing the head sail? For example, you're leaving for home the next day and you're expecting two or three days of snotty weather. How difficult is it to change sails (assuming benign conditions) and put on a working jib that's been modified for furling? Is the folded furling genoa harder to stow than a hanked genny? If this operation isn't too involved, wouldn't that solve some of the problems with relying on one "all purpose" sail. Again, if changing sails is not that bad, in Buzzards Bay, maybe you fly the 100 in the spring and fall and the genny in the hotter, less windy months?

I'm going to start the year with a modified working jib, mainly because the sail has already been refurbished by Sail Care and the modification will be fairly inexpensive since I'm not going to bother with a UV cover. That approach will allow me time to get use to the furler and get more single handing experience.

Then I can take my time making final decisions on the Genny. I'm leaning towards 120-130 based on all I've read to date, mostly on this board.

Dick

[Stan W.]

Dick,

Have you thought about where will you be running the sheets for this sail? For example, a 110 would be a nice sail to have if you could sheet it to your inboard tracks, but your boat would point poorly if you had to sheet it to the outboard tracks. Cape Dory sloops were designed on the premise that most people would be using a working jib or a 150 genoa. Using the outboard tracks, you will need something around a 135 genoa, plus a high clew, to maintain the intended sheeting angle.

At least your boat has inboard tracks. Because it came with a club jib, my CD 28 does not. Now that I have ditched the club jib, I do plan to add inboard tracks at some point. I think Fenixrises has done this and I am anxious to hear how it works out.

[Stan W.]

you can find a smaller outfit that will make a triradial for you (the big lofts won't) which reef much flatter.

If your not too far from the north shore check out Downs Sails in Danvers MA. Cut great sails at a reasonable price.

I understand foam luff pads (I have one) but why, if you know, would tri-radial construction cause a sail to reef flatter?

FWIW, last time I looked, Cruising Direct (division of North Sails) would gladly sell you a roller-furling tri-radial. On the other hand, the "smaller outfit" I use will tell you that a tri-radial is way overkill for a pure cruiser like a Cape Dory.

[rtbates]

We have a roller furler/reefing 130 genoa. The REEFING part is critical. Be sure you get foam tape sewn into the luff. This greatly aids in sail shape when reefing. The sheets are run to the toe rail track about 2/3 of the way aft. I have had this 130 genoa reefed to 90% in 40 kts of wind and can sail as close to the wind as you need/want to w/o even moving the sheet car! Nothing could be easier. Also be sure you don't skimp on the furler gear. Get a good quality unit. I have a Harken system. In 40 kts I can reef/furl w/o even thinking about using a winch, and I'm only 5'8" 145lbs. Furlers have come a long long way in the past 10-15 years.
Mike, on Breezy(25D), in the Pacific, doesn't even carry any storm headsail. He simply reefs his genoa down to the needed size.

[Joe Myerson]

Hi Randy,

We've got the same boat, we're the same height and weight (but you're much younger and, presumably, stronger)--and we've got the same furler--so it looks like a 130 genny with the foam-tape luff may be the way for me to go, too.

A 130 sounds like a huge headsail, but that probably means I could sail downwind without the main.

BTW, can you singlehand with your rig? I sail alone about 80 percent of the time. I'm not so sure that I'd want to tack a 130 genny myself--but maybe it just takes practice. And, of course, I could always keep it partially furled.

Thanks,
--Joe

[dan dory]

I was unaware they offer a tri radial that size. My guess is that they would not make it. It would be farmed out to an overseas division where you then have to question the material they use. Many lofts that are making sails over seas are using lower thread count material that has high resin content.

I have heard the argument from the larger lofts that a tri radial is "overkill" for a Cape Dory-specifically from places like North.

IMO it is not. My reasaoning is that I enjoy sailing my CD and I want to get as much performance as possible. For example, I don't own a high end sports car, but I still put the best performing tires on my car b/c I want it to handle as good as it possibly can.

Secondly,a tri radial cut sail is a lower streach design. The fibers are orientated within 1-3 degree of each other. Again this is merely my opinion but a sail that is less biased will keep is foil shape longer than one that is not. So a tri raidial cut sail should hold it's shape longer and hence perform better for a given number of years.

when I reef my tri radial it seems to hold it's shape better than a compariable cross cut sail.

I have not done any extensive testing I am merely conveying my observations. But, I beleive the reason lofts claim it is over kill is becuase they can not justify the added labor of a small tri radial. For them to make this sail would be more expensive simply because they have higher overhead. In short if they quoted you on a triradial I think you would be in for sticker shock.

So that's my reasoning. You can put it in the for what it's worth column.

[Clay Stalker]

Joe:

On my former CD27 Salsa, I put a North 135 genny on a Harken furler with the foam luff. Worked great in light air except for visibility....cut too low. If I were doing it again on a boat like that, I would still go with the Harken, but would drop to a 130 or 120 and would get a higher cut so I could see under it sailing alone. No matter what folks tell you about reefing down, anything bigger than a 135 will not reef down and provide good performance in heavy air....As for singlehanding, which I do much of the time, the 135 is a challenge to tack but not real difficult for this 54 year old, 190 lb. speciment.....I would still go a bit smaller. I now sail a cutter and have a staysail and a higher cut 110 jib for a headsail....larger than a true Yankee but better in light air.

Clay Stalker

[Rollergirl]

http://na.northsails.com/Cruising_Sails/rf2_genoas.html

Scroll down to the rope luff.

I'v got one on my furling tri-radial #2 for the Ensign. Cool idea. Limited UV degradation, sheds water faster and helps maintain the sail shape when furled. See if you can say that about your 2 year old foam pad.
Most likely last 7 times as long as that fancy mylar laminate sailcloth that I talked myself into buying.

I'm old. I'm tired. I'm lazy. I'm concerned with safety. I furl.

And when I want to sail fast, I hank on with my raceboat. (not an Alberg).

Bill

[ricks]

Hi Joe,

I have a 25D, singlehand about 50% of the time, and last year purchased a new headsail that goes on my Harken furler. After much research, a great deal of it here on this board, and talking to many sailmakers I ended up purchasing a 135 tri-radial. They are made locally if you find the right sailmaker - someone already mentioned Downs, that is where I purchased mine. They designed, cut, and assembled the sail in a local loft with local labor and ordered and lot inspected all of their high quality material before using. I got to stop by and see it in various stages of construction.

A couple of observations:

- After a full season I still can't believe the difference in performance and sailing comfort the new sail has made.

- I have no problem singlehanding the 135. Under normal conditions it is not difficult at all to get the sail over. Under heavy conditions I will sometimes release the sheet just enough (loose enough to allow furling, enough tension to reduce flogging - basically sheet weight), furl the headsail to ~100%, tack, let the sail out, and trim. After a few iterations it becomes second nature. I only have to do this occasionally - if the wind kicks up much more you don't want the full 135 out there anyway.

- I am convinced that the tri-radial will hold it's shape better than a cross cut over the long haul - it makes sense to me being an engineer and having heard the theory and seen diagrams showing force vectors for a headsail very similar to mine. I had heard from a number of small lofts that make tri-radials that the reason most larger lofts poo-poo the need for tri-radial for cruising is they don't want the additional manufacturing costs as someone has already proposed. I did not pay much more for the tri-radial (and personal attention) I got from the small loft I used.

- ditto on the foam luff. I am a relatively inexperienced sailor but I see very little degradation in pointing ability or performance when furled back to 100-110%. My sail seems to hold it's shape fairly well. I've never been out in more than 40K conditions so my experience is limited by that.

- I agree about the visibility - my sail is cut fairly low also - but I sure don't mind it on those light wind days when my boat still seems to have a spring in it's step with that big old headsail out there!

Good luck with your search.

Rick

[rtbates]

That's the real beauty of a roller/reefer for the headsail. You simply roll out what you need and go. Too much heel, roll a tad in. Going into a beat with too much apparent wind, roll in a tad more. Falling off to a run with less apparent wind, roll her all the way out.

Another nice thing that can be done with a roller headsail. Roll out about 50-80% depending on wind and sea conditions. Back the headsail and set your tiller to leeward. You're now hove to w/o the main so she'll drift off to leeward. Want to set the main? Relase the main sheet and go to the mast let the boom fall off so that it's downwind and rise the main. Walk back to the cokpit and sheet the main in hard. Your now still hove to, but with the main so your attitude will be less OFF the wind. When single handing in high winds this is how I drop my main. Reverse order. It works like a charm and all the while Seraph simply sits and drifts. It what full keels do best!



I wouldn't/couldn't go back to a hanked on headsail anymore than I could go back to a car with a carburetor!