Thoughts on sea anchors and drogues for Cape Dory's

[randy bates]

Randy 25D Seraph #161

While I haven't used every kind of drogue in every kind of condition, my experience has been that when your boat goes into the trough between waves, the oncoming wave tends to throw whatever you're towing toward you. So there is a periodic tightening and little bit of slack in the line. What you do to get it in without a trip line, is every time you get the little bit of slack you bring a little in and cleat off. Then as you ride the crest of the next one and down the face it tightens up and holds you back. In a short time you've got enough in to either manhandle it the rest of the way or you've reduced the drag enough that it can just be winched in. There maybe some conditions where it would be bar tight the whole time, but if it's that tight you won't be thinking about taking it in yet anyway. It's only when the wind and waves ease and you slow down a little that you want to take it in and at that point you'll be getting some slack between waves. At least that's been my experience.

If the system can be retrieved without the use of a trip line how much drag can it possibly exert? Is there another, non tripline, method of retreival? Somehow the system needs to be made to stop exerting drag in-order for it to be hauled aboard, right?

randy 25D Seraph #161

Ken,

I don't believe they recommend a trip line because of potential entanglement issues, plus the small cones apparently make it retreviable as is without too much difficulty. Try reading the entire articles on the series drouge site, somewhere in there it discusses it. One reason I like my Gale Rider no trip line needed. My Para Anchor requires one and a float.

rtbates@austin.rr.com

[randy bates]

Mike:

Would you deploy these off the bow or the stern? Are you looking to hold the bow into the wind/waves or are you looking to slow down while running with the wind/waves. Is it an either/or situation? I have never used one and have always read about using them to hold the bow up. My last read disputes this by saying that most narrow boats like CD will sail around the sea anchor much like at anchor. And because of this the author recommends deploying off the stern as you run off. What's your take?

Randy 25D Seraph #161

I need to purchase storm gear and would like to hear the boards thoughts on choosing between either a sea anchor (a proper one, not a used airman's parachute) or a series drogue (the 116 cone unit).

Which would or do, you carry on board?

Your reasons behind your decision?

Know of any good sources for these units, any used units available?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Sea U,
Mike
LaVida
CD33

rtbates@austin.rr.com

[s.v. LaVida]

In response, here is an update on the Jordan Drogue.

After a season or so of debate, I bought the drogue in an unassembled package, and saved a substantial amount of money.

The main portion of the drogue is now assembled and I'm designing the custom bridle and a stowage/deployment/retrieval system.

We are going to use both the midship and aft cleats to manage the potential loads generated by the drogue. We will increase the backing plate size on all cleats.

The main headache is designing a package that will hold everything, securely. This is one HEAVY bundle to be lugging around on a pitching deck, so I want to do it right the first time.

Since space is limited on a 33, so we are thinking it will live below deck, until needed. I need to figure out the best approach to secure the drogue in a deployable area/mode.

Any suggestions?


Thanks in advance,
Mike

[M. R. Bober]

Mike, CD didn't do a very good job providing backing plates for the midship cleats (IMHO). On RESPITE, the backing "plates" consist of 5 or 6 s/s fender washers. There isn't a lot of room under the midship cleats, but I think there is enough for a single plate. Knowing this--and not having corrected it, yet--I tend to avoid placing much load on those cute little rascals.

Mitchell Bober
Sunny Annapolis (Where it's been mighty warm for November), MD

[Didereaux]

Mike,
After going back over this whole thread, one thing seems to reoccur: namely the problem of where and how to secure the bridle.

If you simply use fore(or midcleats) and then to the aft cleats to distribute the load...you haven't.

The last cleat(s) in the series will carry the full load until they break, then the load shifts to the next set. Which by the way will be a considerable shock shift and would probably carry away those as well when it hits them. You might place a heavy snubber on the aft cleat, hook a block and tackle to it, with the other end attached to the fore cleat and the working part to the bridle. That would provide for shock loading and distribute a jerk load partially to the aft(weakest) cleat.

An alternate method is to cleat the bitter end to the fore or mid cleat(whichever has the better backing) and then take a turn or two around the main winches. This allows some of the load(most of it with only a single turn) to pass to the strongest hardware the fore cleat. Each end of the bridle fallows a similar route.

You must use ONLY nylon line for maximum stretch, as the jerrk load hits it is absorbed firstly with the stretch, as the load continues the winch picks up some of it and as it rotates with more load passes it back to the cleat.

The primary winches on your boat are far more securely mounted than those aft cleats, and probably even by themselves would never suffer from even the longest Jordan droque(but that is not what I am proposing).

But it should be noted that there were several posters who do not realize the lessened loads that series droques produce, nor do they seem to understand that the great length of these things span the waves sin such a way that huge shock loads such as sea anchors and chutes produce because of their single point locations, are simply never encountered with the series.

g'Luk

[Didereaux]

http://www.jordanseriesdrogue.com/D_11.htm

Some really excellnt videos of boats in heavy seas, etc. Also the site has a pdf of the Coast Guards official report on its drogue tests.

good stuff, beats the hell out of hearsay!

g'Luk

[mike hunter]

I've used para tech drogues and sea anchors on my 25D-used the sea anchor in about 40 knots just to try it out sailing down baja-very easy to deploy despite what many will say-just have a line running from the bow to the cockpit beforehand, hook it up and throw it over. The sea drogue I used sailing in 10 days downwind going to hawaii , nothing under 35 knots and often well over 45. They're great-even when the wind is not stormforce-downwind it makes life much more comfortable. tough to drag them in though. Great customer service-para tech sent me 2 new ones for free, different colors after a shark tore up the yellow one-life after the drogue was misery.

[Pete]

I found the book Storm Tactics Handbook by Lin and Larry Pardey a great read. What I found interesting was that the book is written from their first hand experience in trying various methods of dealing with storms. In a nutshell, deploy a para-anchor (with swivel) and hove-to. This provides a controlled environment (all things considered) to let the storm pass over you.

Enjoy the read...

Pete

[Russell]

Thanks for resurecting this thread, I have been going through the sea anchor vs drouge debate recently. Almost bought a sea anchor at the boat show but passed on it at the time. Some great info in this thread, though even after reading it I am no closer to deciding whats best for me.

[s.v. LaVida]

after looking at every cleat, i've decided to back them up, no matter what.

some have suggested just using a tugboat hitch on the winches, however I'm not sure I'd want to load my winches in this manner.

my mounting/deployment and retrevial is also complicated by my monitor windvane.

at this point, i am thinking of installing a couple heavy duty pad eyes in the deck on the port and starboard sides to take the load of the bridle.

thoughts?

MIke

[Tom Keevil]

There is an article by Beth Leonard in the December issue of Cruising World about their experience with a Gale Rider drogue. They ran the bridle lines through blocks attached to the stern pulpit to limit chafe, and then to the winches with tugboat hitches. Seems to have worked for them in some pretty nasty seas.

[Oswego John]

Mike,

Call me old fashioned if you will for saying this, but I am a strong believer in the use of a sampson post for use in what you are about to do.

A properly installed sampson post is head and shoulders stronger than a bevy of cleats, pad eyes and winches all rolled together.

You might get a ration of negatism from the naysayers who maintain that a post detracts from the appearance of your CD, etc. But when a person is floundering in gale force whipped seas as high as your spreaders, is this the time to be concerned with aesthetics, or dependability and life itself? You and I know what the North Atlantic can become.

I agree with your thoughts on dependence on making fast to a winch(es). I feel that their primary use is for hauling in or easing off a line which should then be belayed.

A properly installed post, and I emphasize properly installed, can be used for towing or being towed. It doesn't make difference whether it is made of wood or metal. It is also ideal for multiple anchor rodes when preparing to ride out hurricanes, etc.

A penny for my thoughts? I just gave you two cents worth.
O J

PS: I've got most of your info. I'm sorting it out now. The main concern is taken care of, am working on a back up.

[s.v. LaVida]

OJ,

I totally agree with the samson post, however finding a place to put two is a problem. I have seen some miniature posts, in stainless, but I'm not sure of their working load. They might be mountable in some midship location.

I've looked at using both the stern and midship cleats together in a four legged bridle (which by the way could double as a good towing bridle).

The padeye is a good solution, especially if I could find one rated for the load, however its becoming an increasing difficult piece of hardware to find.

Another option is to install another set of larger cleats along the deck, in an area that allows LARGE backing plates.......decisions, decisions!

What are your thoughts on a "quick release system" for the drogue? Knife?

Another task is to make the "package" deployable. I'm leaning towards a custom canvas bag, stern rail mounted (only when needed) mesh bottomed sumbrella bag, (3" velcro straps for closure) and flake the drogue into it.

Operationally you would mount the bag (again with velcro) on the stern rail, pull out the bridle, attach it to the ????? , then, making sure all was clear, lower the end of the drogue over the side. (Caution is expressed here, as the drogue will whip out of the bag like a snake on fire. One has to make sure the drogue has a clear path for deployment. Entanglement in anything will result in damage to YOU or the boat.)

Getting this lot back on board another concern. The down side to all para-anchors and drogues is the retrieval process, which can take quite a long time and requiring considerable physical effort.

So far, the design of this drogue installation is proving to be, one of the more interesting items, I've installed on LaVida.

I think, this spring, I'll have to go looking for some nasty weather to realize the benefits of all this design work!

sea u,
mike

p.s. thanks for your efforts. i'll be interested to hear your results.

[rtbates]

Run the bridle lines thru snatch blocks to the mast base. Even on a deck step mast I'd think you'd have plenty of strength.

[Didereaux]

No, the mast base is not as strong as it appears. Especially a deck stepped base. Take a look at the pins that secure it, and then compare them to the mount of metal securing a winch or a cleat. I think you'd be worried to tie a lawyer there.

As for keel stepped you have the problem of the forces acting against the cabin top collar, it is not designed for stress at that point. Realize that masts are basically compressive structures with lateral forces mostly at spreaders and above which are taken care of by the shroudds and stays, whereas there are no 'natural' forces to speak of at the base of a mast so they are given only the support needed and no more.

On smaller masts you also have the problem of wall collapse as your lines exert force only on one side, and if those lines are subject to large forces such as jerking from towing or sea anchors they can deform and possibly collapse.

As I see it anywho,